A really beautiful and serious thing ...for new members

[etp1017]

Hi, I have posted before on the "Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is a Cult?" thread and want to move over here to get some feedback and continue to discuss this issue. First I want to let Mark know that I personally appreciate his courage for tackling this topic. In my opinion if you try to re-write the Big Book I can honestly say that I fear you would be endangering your life. It would be comparable to trying to re-write the Bible.
Anything I write here is just my opinion, I am not a therapist. I am a person who came to AA by means of a treatment facility back in the early eighties. I have had relapses but mostly my adult life has been spent abstinent of alcohol and drugs (thank God). I don't want to make this post about me and my relapses I just wanted to put out there that I have a huge amount of experience in AA and (more importantly) intimate friendships and love relationships with people from AA.
I have come to the realization that AA is a cult and that the people who swear by it and have a lot of "time" are mentally ill BECAUSE of being in AA which is why it is dangerous. The mere fact that I cannot have an open minded conversation with most people from AA (except a newcomer) about the cult like aspects of the Program ("How it Works", the wording of the 12 steps, having a sponsor .....etc.) proves it to me. They accept all of it without question and it cannot be questioned period.
I believe that AA creates and/or supports narcissism. The narcissistic personality is rampant in AA. Mainly because AA focuses on the individual. They become self-obsessed, constantly doing the steps, "working" on themselves and telling their story (from the podium). They sponsor people and openly tell them what to do without batting an eye. They sponsor multiple people where obviously the issue becomes quantity over quality therefore the relationships are more about the sponsor than the sponsees.
The people in AA need some serious diversity training. They assume because one is alcoholic one has certain characteristics therefore everyone who goes to AA fits the same character type. And that character type is not good to say the least. They judge intensely and righteously. A lot of people in AA are very hypercritical and do not display anything closely resembling a spiritual person (patient, kind, tolerant non-judgmental...etc.). Not all - just most. They will take the Program and beat you with it meanwhile their life is a total mess.
When I had my last relapse I came back to AA and expected help and support. I was open to "friends" in AA about my life issues that went to hell when I relapsed (financial, loss of long term relationship, loss of self esteem...etc.). As time has gone by and my own mental health has improved I have found that my Program "friends" are acting unbelievably controlling and have gotten very manipulative. Obviously they are having a hard time with me living my own life and getting better. I have come to the conclusion that anyone who is in AA and does not see the cult like characteristics of it is brainwashed and therefore not mentally healthy. I also came to the conclusion that these "friends" and "partners" have done significant damage to me over all these years and perhaps contributed to my actual relapses. These people are by definition "toxic". This is why leaving AA is a good thing.
Thanks, Evelyn

[xenophon]

Sharing a common affliction is no basis for a community. this error is fatal.
As I said elsewhere, AA has a few attractions:
a need for structure
a need for authority
loneliness
a need for an answer.

AA does appear to support, perhaps to intensify, perhaps to develop narcissism. Or, at least, a narcissistic attitude. It is a 'selfish program'.

'Alcoholics' are just like other human beings -- unique. How human beings are different is more important than how they are alike. 'Terminal uniqueness' is a description of the human condition. That term is designed to deflate the ego. Thus, all 'alcoholics' are alike. Just like Bill Wilson.
In deflating the ego, one must ask: qui bono? AA does.

[etp1017]

Thank you for your reply. I understand what you are saying and I agree. The need to deflate the ego of the newcomer to mold them into an AA member is cult like. I could see if the oldtimers were non-ego based but that is totally not the case. The newcomer is to hail to AA, the rules (written and unwritten), and the precious oldtimers while the oldtimers take advantage of the vulnerable newcomers (sexually and through controlling tactics). All of this has nothing to do with alcohol.
I did go to a meeting on Sunday and heard a woman tell her story. She was celebrating 7 years. Her share was typical and portrayed AA as being this wonderful safe haven where she was able (with the help of her sponsor) to find herself and get a life that she loves today. Her story really did sound good and I was thinking why was my AA experience so totally different from hers? Why am I left wanting to shoot anyone who comes at me from AA telling me how I should live my life and what I should do. I guess it comes down to the quality of people that someone gets involved with in the beginning of their AA journey. My AA experience was tainted black very early on by some very unhealthy people and I never could trust after that.
I probably will still go to meetings as I do enjoy the entertainment value and the social aspect but I absolutely must keep the "members" out of the details of my private life as their advice really sucks and most have no boundaries nor the intelligence to be respectful.

[ASchwartz]

Hi Ept1017,

Welcome to our community. I think you will find this a place for lively discussion. I also hope you find it a place where you can discuss your individual issues, including addiction and not soley AA. Discussing AA here is fine and you are welcome. Please do not misunderstand. I just hope you include your self as well. By the way, I am sure that you and JR will be in agreement about AA.

Ept1017, aside from AA did you enter psychotherapy during your years struggling with addiction? I ask because, over many years of practice I saw many individuals with alcohol and other addictions who, in addition to or without AA, NA, etc., stayed in psychotherapy with me and did quite well. I am not saying this to pat myself on the back but to point out how helpful therapy can be.

Allan :)

[etp1017]

Thank you for your kind welcome into the community. I am not sure if I am staying as I just needed to vent my AA frustration. Imagine coming to terms with being in a cult, quite a big deal and lots of feelings. Yes, I have been to therapy and have also been in a long term relationship with a therapist so I am well aware of the pros and cons of it. For me right now I feel it is important that I take care of myself as I see fit and not via input from anyone else. Especially someone who sees me through the eyes of AA or through some diagnosis.
Cute dog by the way.
Evelyn

[xenophon]

I do think it is useful to clarify -- a good word, clarify - the relationship with AA. AA is a unique organization. Others may not readily understand. It is not necessary for others to understand. What matters is that it is clarified for you.

[Dia4Dios]

What a serendipitous topic; I met my ex-wife through AA; we did an extended "13th step" and it turned into a marriage. 15 years, 2 children, 2 bankruptcies, and 5 houses later I thought I was the only one feeling that AA was a cult. I dismissed it as a way to "knock" the ex for she is still active in it, and even goes to a 12-step "divorce care" program...Egad!

Strangely enough, I do still go to meetings, even though I relapsed during the separation. I feel no guilt, I simply wanted to be different from the man who the ex met almost 20 years ago. I go to meetings now, predominantly to learn by watching; I do have much to offer, but as previous posts have shown, I am very guarded about my personal information....sure the anonymity thing should apply, but I can't say that I feel like a "kindred" spirit from "The Program" anymore. I guess I will just live by the "Take what you want, and leave the rest." slogan........

I'm curious if I felt the AA was a cult opinion due to its role in bringing my ex and I together when we should have been nice to the world and left each other alone.
True, there are many aspects of "cult" with the program, yet I feel some of it's decentralized organization, as well as its lack of secret and witheld knowledge, nor does it have an inner circle. So whether it is by nature, character, or function a cult is almost moot. It serves the needs of many, is exploited as a users' forum by others, and gets droll to those who have negative, connective experiences, like me.

Does it really matter which side of the "AA is a cult." one comes down on? I have heard of no "rescues" from AA, I know its cult-like nature has produced many alternative programs with the same goal. So what next?

[etp1017]

I appreciate your post Dia4Dios you, like myself, have a lot of experience in AA and the AA community. First thing that came to my mind when I read your post was the thought that we are all human beings. Humans have a natural, God given desire for intimate relationships. Especially that long term, committed relationship. It seems quite understandable that in any group there are going to be people who get together as a couple and make a go of life together. Seems healthy to me. In AA though there are some issues with that.....one being the "newcomer". The unwritten rule is "No relationships for the first year." Makes sense but not easy to do especially for the "newcomer" who has had their whole life turned upside down and is looking for support and any kind of "escape" from the pain of their life. Romantic relationships are a "high" and a great way to "escape". Also, there is the "put one drug down, pick up another one" syndrome that anyone trying to stop an addictive behavior will fall subject to. Just ask a cigarette smoker who stops smoking then gains weight. Also the "newcomer" does not have the mental clarity to make a healthy choice as to the type of person they are getting involved with. For me I made the (unrealistic) conclusion that anyone in AA who had "time" and was working the program was safe and more healthy than me. BIG mistake. This is why the "newcomer" (in my opinion) is so vulnerable to being taken advantage of by someone with "time". My issue with AA is that most people with "time" do not really know why "No relationships in the first year." They just say it and the "newcomer" is supposed to just do what they say like they are in the military or something. Most therapists know that to get a client to actually see or get what the therapist is trying to tell them is very difficult and there are few clients who will just do what a therapist tells them just because "I said so." This is why I do believe that the best thing for AA is to get some professionals in there training those unskilled sponsors. But that, of course, will never happen as AA will not change.
The other issue I see is that most people in AA had abusive childhoods and most are not healed. They will get into a relationship (either a friendship or a romantic one) with you and because they have not dealt with their childhood trauma...you get it. They project their pain right onto you. You are the culprit. I have been in more abusive/unhealthy relationships with people in AA than I care to mention.
I have my part....being stupid enough to keep going back and expecting to find emotionally healthy people. I am done. All I need to do is not drink. Like I said I do go to meetings, I like the social and spiritual aspect but I will not let any of them into the intimate details of my life. Not worth the risk because if I get into a painful relationship (friendship) that has left me feeling used and abused I could very well drink.

[boomergal47]

I so appreciate everyone who has posted here about their not so good experiences with AA, and the 12 step program. I thought it was only me who had a bad experience and could not bear to go back. I was involved with ACA, adult children of alcoholics, for a 3 year period, about 17 years ago. A lot of pressure was put on me to get a sponsor right away, and I did so without the time or chance to really sit back in meetings and hear what these people say. It was a disastrous experience with my sponsor. Not once during those 3 years did she ever help me work the program. It was much more of a social experience she wanted from me, like she wanted me to go shopping with her, go to visit her kids, etc. She gave out my unlisted phone number to other people I did not know. I don't want to go overboard here with all she did to hurt my feelings, but my opinion of 12 step meetings is that it is primarily a place to meet people, some of whom have no idea how to work the program, but that doesn't prevent them from sponsoring people. There are also a lot of mentally ill people there, and although I do have a lot of mental problems myself, I just could not handle theirs. I actually got much more help from reading all the associated 12 step books than I ever did from the meetings or the people. In the end, though, I do blame myself for not being spiritual enough to overlook these problems and stick with the program. Thanks for having this forum to let people vent. I had been stuffing these feelings for 17 years, and I now feel I have gotten rid of some pain regarding this experience.

[BiPolarGirl]

Well this is news to me. I attend CA (cocaine anonymous) and I have never felt that I am involved with a cult. To be sure AA and CA are not affiliated but they are both based on the 12 steps to recovery and a belief in a higher power. They do NOT insist that the higher power has to be god - it could be your best friend, family, anything that gives you hope and strength. It is all about being around people who have "been there, done that" and are able to help you to discontinue your self-harm.

A cult, by contrast, insists on a belief in a god - usually the founder of the cult. They also defraud you of your bank account, life savings, etc. There is typically sexual abuse and you are often isolated from the rest of society by living on some sort of commune or being closely chaperoned wherever you go by another cult member. That is NOT the way CA or AA work - I am certain of it.

I am sorry you have had bad experiences. Is it the full objective story about what happened to you? If so you need to leave that particular group and find a new one. Or perhaps your withdrawal from alcohol has rendered you distrustful and a little paranoid? Either way I refuse to agree with you that AA is a cult.