Dmx

[hermia]

Do any of you know anything about "DXM" (dextromethorphan)? I initially posted in the new member forum about my son and our situation. This seems to be the drug of choice with him. I'm not sure i understand this very well. Is the drug it self addictive or is it more like a habit?

What i mean is...opiates and alchohol and other things have physically addicting properties. Not only do you have to deal with the habit and what caused it, you have to deal with the physical effect as well.

Also, from what i've seen, most substance abuse problems start small and grow out of hand. One drink or one pill to get through this or that...then 2, then more. With this, he's taking enough of the stuff to have had several trips to the hospital ER in the past few weeks. It's not just getting "high" or getting a buzz... each and every time he does this he's completely out of control.

Thanks

[David O]

Hi hermia,

Well, your son has certainly picked a drug of choice for this generation: cheap, over the counter, an easy high, and easy to justify having around. This has been going on now for about 10 years. I'm so sorry this has come into your life- I remember when my son experimented with alcohol and pot, how it ate at me to see him hurting himself and yet pretending we were naive parents who didn't know better.

DMX at the medically recommended dosage is mostly an anti-tussive, as you know, but at much higher dosage you can get psychedelic highs that can even match PCP, with it's body distortions, feelings of dissociation and other effects. At regular dosage, it has very limited addictive properties: at much higher doses, it's been known to cause psychological dependence and even depression if taken for extended periods. At extremely high (and dangerous) doses, kids can develop what's called pisthotonos (spasm where head and heels are bent back, and torso is bent forward), toxic psychosis (hyperactivity, marked visual and auditory hallucinations), coma, seizures and much more. It's cousin, chlorpheniramine (Dimetapp) is equally dangerous at high doses.

The theory that if one starts here, they soon move on to more serious drugs (called the Gateway Drugs Theory) has some research support, and yet there is some research that suggests it's not scientifically valid. It all depends on which study you read.

But, the real issue is what can you as the parent do? It's nigh impossible to stop him by force or by keeping home as a prisoner- your best defense is your relationship with him. Things you can do:
1) Never underestimate the power of talk, honest, open, compassionate and straight. Talk about how you love him, spend time with him if you can-- there's nothing like a fishing trip, taking in a ballgame together, seeing a movie, going to a laser tag game with some of his friends. Don't give up, keep trying even if he shows little interest or says no. Kids who explore with drugs often do so as an expression of disconnection. Well connected kids are less likely to be pulled in by drugs.
2) Know who his friends are, where he's going, how long he'll be there, when he's coming back, etc. Make sure he calls you hourly when he's out later than 9PM and listen to his voice and timing.
3) Remove all medicines or lock them up, including Windex (kids get high off of this also)
4) If you go to church, increase that activity-- go more often, stay longer, make sure he connects with peers and his community (research indicates that kids who are well connected religiously also have less drug problems as a whole)
5) Most kids will consume alcohol, and other drugs between 3 and 6 p.m.-- just after school and before parents get home from work. Having him involved in after school extracurricular activities has been shown to prevent substance abuse in this age group.

These things are a good start. One thing to be aware of is that DMX abuse, like other drug abuses, are signals that there is something not right in the home or school. Family therapy is strongly recommended-- see a cognitive-behaviorally focused therapist if possible, it has good evidence for its effectiveness.

Good luck and I hope this helps. Hopefully other more knowldegable folks will pitch in soon.

[Abbadun]

Hi

I googled some links

http://www.gdcada.org/statistics/dxm.htm

http://www.chpa-info.org/governmentaffairs/Medicine_Abuse_DXM.aspx

http://www.drugfree.org/portal/drug_guide/dxm

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/157/2/304

http://www.dextroverse.org/Archives/Massive_DXM_Ingestion_and_Abuse.pdf

This last link is the most distrubing a online community of DMX users, I did not bother to register to check them out.

http://www.dextroverse.org/

To be fair this community did post one of the above links critical of DMX use.

William


Do any of you know anything about "DXM" (dextromethorphan)? I initially posted in the new member forum about my son and our situation. This seems to be the drug of choice with him. I'm not sure i understand this very well. Is the drug it self addictive or is it more like a habit?

What i mean is...opiates and alchohol and other things have physically addicting properties. Not only do you have to deal with the habit and what caused it, you have to deal with the physical effect as well.

Also, from what i've seen, most substance abuse problems start small and grow out of hand. One drink or one pill to get through this or that...then 2, then more. With this, he's taking enough of the stuff to have had several trips to the hospital ER in the past few weeks. It's not just getting "high" or getting a buzz... each and every time he does this he's completely out of control.

Thanks

[hermia]

Thank you both for your replies.

David... one of the ER visits was due to a reaction of some sort. Started with complaining that his mouth was numb which progressed to drooling then torticolis in the neck and some very odd eye symptoms...kept looking up and to one side. Initially i thought it was a panic attack but it progressed throughout the afternoon to the point where he bagan screaming that he was dieing and wanted to go to the hospital. He had received haldol in the ER the previous day and when we went back they said this was due to a reaction to that and CO2 retention from hyperventilating. They gave him ativan and the symptoms ceased. After reading some of the info in the links that william posted i am now wondering if it was more a psychotic episode due to the DMX usage itself.

I wish the normal parenting tactics worked...monitoring friends and whereabouts etc, asking him to call home, trying to keep him involved. He's far beyond that.

William...thanks for the links. Saw alot of info i hadn't previously read.

[David O]

Hermia,

I understand your frustration and the feeling of hopelessness, but as long as he's in the home (I assume he is), he's no where close to "beyond that"! How old is he? Do you live in a city or in a smaller community? Does he have cell phone? Does he work and have his own money or do you give him money? Where does he eat and how often? Who does his laundry and takes care of his basic needs? How does he get around when there's no "friend" to take him places? Where are his basic needs met and what "services" do you provide so that he can meet his own "desires and needs"?

This may be the only "power base" you have, but it's a starting place for redesigning the relationship.

[hermia]

David,
He's 19 and we live in a small city. I posted some general info in my introduction post in the new members forum (no job, no savings, history of mental illness, etc.)

Yes, this relationship definitely requires redesigning! Essentially things have come to the point where i only provide for the most basic of needs, food and a home. I won't pay his fines, give him cash, or transportation to any where that isn't directly related to his betterment. I won't even allow him to use my phone anymore if it's not to call for a job or to seek counseling.

Pretty much the only leverage i'm left with is a home and food and i cannot see it in my heart to pull the plug on that.

Thanks again for your reply
hermia

[Abbadun]

Hi Hermia

If your son does not have one yet, I would contact his probation officer once he gets one or they may just give him a court officer because he has not committed a serious crime. Often they can stipulate that a person attends a program.

DMX sounds a lot like Alcohol where a person does not crash and burn like with stronger drugs, but slowly destroys themselves. Since he mostly likely never will need to spend hundreds of dollars of day on his drug of choice he may never come under the direction of the law. The situations where he fights with his Father may be the only time that he truly crosses the law and becomes court stipulated.

Good Luck

William


Do any of you know anything about "DXM" (dextromethorphan)? I initially posted in the new member forum about my son and our situation. This seems to be the drug of choice with him. I'm not sure i understand this very well. Is the drug it self addictive or is it more like a habit?

What i mean is...opiates and alchohol and other things have physically addicting properties. Not only do you have to deal with the habit and what caused it, you have to deal with the physical effect as well.

Also, from what i've seen, most substance abuse problems start small and grow out of hand. One drink or one pill to get through this or that...then 2, then more. With this, he's taking enough of the stuff to have had several trips to the hospital ER in the past few weeks. It's not just getting "high" or getting a buzz... each and every time he does this he's completely out of control.

Thanks

[David O]

Abbadun is right! You may petition the court for a PO (sometimes you have to fight for one) and if one is assigned, meet with the PO and ask him to assist the family in developing a very strongly and clearly worded behavioral contract. Read up on the elements of such a contract and then jointly draw one up between you, your son and the PO.

Stick to the contract for 40-60 days, w/o hesitation, and you will begin to see changes in your son. If you don't stick to it, it is weakened, so are you, the PO is powerless----- and your son loses again.

Good luck!

[hermia]

Hi and thanks again for the info and replies. He's definitely in trouble with the law for things other than the fight with his father. Though all misdimeaner charges, i do believe they add up. He has a hearing friday morning, and i'm hoping they do more than issue additional fines. What he needs is mental health treatment, not fines or jail. He had a probabation officer as a juvenile. Hate to say it, but that was a real joke. He was placed in a boot-camp like facility and she saw him MAYBE 3 times in 2 years. They took him off his meds despite my protests. They said he was doing well and didn't require them any longer. Yes, he did well in that environment. He had no choice. But when on his own with choices to make, he can't handle it.

hermia

[David O]

Good morning Hermia,

I'm a bit confused. Are you his father or step-father (your use of third person "his father" is a bit confusing)? I'm now unsure of what you're asking. We're unable to help him, so the logical question is: How can we help you? We sometimes get folks in here who want to help someone else and over time realize that the focus needs to be on the person writing in since the 3rd party is too much out of our control.

So, how is this affecting you? What struggles are you having with this? And, if we could offer you support, compassion, insight, and wisdom, what form would be most useful for you?

Pleasse write back and let us know.

[hermia]

Good morning Hermia,

I'm a bit confused. Are you his father or step-father (your use of third person "his father" is a bit confusing)? I'm now unsure of what you're asking. We're unable to help him, so the logical question is: How can we help you? We sometimes get folks in here who want to help someone else and over time realize that the focus needs to be on the person writing in since the 3rd party is too much out of our control.

So, how is this affecting you? What struggles are you having with this? And, if we could offer you support, compassion, insight, and wisdom, what form would be most useful for you?

Pleasse write back and let us know.


Hi david... sorry for not being clear...and also for not replying more promptly. I am his mother. My son is 19. Yes, a year past being a "legal adult", but a child none the less. I am well aware of the implications and futility in trying to help someone who does not want to be "helped". I'm not sure that's exactly the case with my son though. Just because someone says they don't have a problem or want help doesn't mean thats always the case. Sounds a tad delusional, i know...but i know this from my own personal standpoint...not from trying to change others. The human psyche is a strange place. If we all behaved reasonably and predictably there would be little need for places like this.


So...i suppose...what i came here looking for is insight...maybe wisdom. I want a child who attains some level of normal functioning and a reasonably happy life and i'd like to help him do that BEFORE he destroys himself.

hermia

[David O]

Hi Hermia,

If i had read more carefully, i would have realized you were his mother... mea culpa... mea culpa!

Hermia, I have 2 children and can recall when my son, in his teen years, began to abuse alcohol (he no longer does) and my sweating it out, fearful and very pained by what I believed lay ahead for him. I think that over the years I have cried over my son more than anything else in life. I've crid about when he had Lyme disease, the the panic attacks and anxiety and depression, then the asthma attacks, then when he fell off the tree, the when he stepped on a golf tee and it went thru his foot. Basically, I can remember every tear and how deeply I wept over all of his pains. We are never free, are we?

The reason I was saying you couldn't change him was not be/c you can't, but b/c at a certain point he is no longer there. Drug and alcohol are much like the pods in Invasion of the Body Snatchers, where the person's mind is snatched away by the chemical and what you have is the shell of the child you once knew. I'm not suggesting this is where your son is, in fact he may be no where close to this stage. Overall, what I'm saying is that you might no longer be talking to the son you once had... he is changed, made different by the chemicals.

Also, kicking him out, which many parents do, only serves to further isolate him from you, his lifeline, and push him deeper into his problem. This is usually the worst decision.

Please keep in mind that the disease of addiction is a family disease, the child does not live in a vacuum. The alcoholic/ addict is obsessed with doing the drug, and the family is obsessed with the problem. Things to do (my list again):

1) One of the best tools (which is where my initial post came from) in working with a family in crisis is effective communication skills. By keeping communication an open door, you will find that it is very useful for putting together a plan of action that you and the family can agree upon. What is your position going to be? Look at the here and now, what can I do right now?

2) Positive rituals are a good starting point-- he has to eat someday, so make an exceptional dinner every night and invite him to join you. Don't discuss the past as this may only silence and agitate him, instead, look forward. With addiction comes a lot of damage; material and emotional, so focus on tomorrow or the next day first.

3) Always have a 3rd party over for dinner, this take the pressure off and they can serve as a buffer. If you son interacts with a third party you will find that recovery often goes better, because often times the family is too emotionally close to the addict to be of any real help. Please realize that you are the parents and you are not responsible for the problem.

4) Consider rehab (preferably non-AA focused rehab- if one can be found) and take him yourself. This may need to be put on the table with your husband. Also, you might have said this, but, does he also have any mental health issues? If so, he may require a dual diagnosis program. If possible, get him involved in a place where they offer various options and have expertise in addictions medicine. This will be your final hurdle and it wil be painful, difficult and could result in aggressive behavior on his part. Remember, you're trying to save a life, and nothing should interfere with this goal.

5) read, read and read some more about addictions, addictive behavior, how to talk to your child about addiction/drug use, etc. Understand how drugs affect the brain and why you can't reach him. Knowledge will be your best weapon here.

Good luck and I hope this helps,
David

[ASchwartz]

Hi Hermia and David O.,

I agree with David but not with all he said. It is not that your son is no longer there because of drugs and alcohol but because we as parents no longer have control past a certain point in their lives, whether they use drugs or not. Yes, all of us parents would like to have the kind of child you mention but, its not up to us. You son is in charge of his life, whether you think of him as old or young. All you can do and should do is to live YOUR LIFE to the fullest. I am speaking not only as a professional but as a parent who has been there and knows from personal experience.

As far as your son getting help, I have two reactions:

1. You can offer to find him help but, its up to him to use it. If he does not want you to find help for him, then, that's the end of the discussion. Also, I don't know if he is living at home with you or not but, if he is using, he should told to move out. You do not want to enable him: that means that you do not want to make it easy for him to use drugs and alcohol. If he uses he needs to learn the consequences. This may sound hard to you but its the truth. This is a truth that comes not just from a professional but a parent who has been all around this neighborhood.

2. I totally disagree with David O about AA and twelve step programs. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for you son to avoid AA and AA type twelve step programs. This also comes from a me as a therapist and a personally experienced person.

What are your thoughts and, David, what are your reactions?

Allan

[Tony J]

Hi Hermia,

I just want to second what Allan said. Don't be affraid of AA, AA based rehab or (and this you may want to try first) Al-Anon meetings for yourself.

There is a very vocal anti-AA crew out here in cyberspace but you owe it to yourself to find out what YOU think. It is a very effective program for many, many people. At the very least you will talk to a few people in the same boat as you are at the moment. There is no easy answer and there is probably no ONE answer. Best to keep your options open at this stage.

I have been sober in AA for over 12 years. I've seen it work wonders and I've seen it on rare occasions not work. Don't expect miracles. Recovery is a process. Sometimes a very long one. Get some support for yourself. You deserve it. You will suffer as any mother suffers but you don't have to do it blindly. :)

[JulianP]

deleted.....

[David O]

Hermia,

PS I am hoping that if anyone on this site feels compelled to argue for or against a specific treatment philsophy, that is done through an alternate thread, so as not to impose our personal agendas onto someone who is clearly struggling and deserves to be the uncompromised focus of our concern, feedback, and insights. JP is right. I was concerned about having this issue on your thread from the beginning. I deleted my posts since I think they are a distraction, serve no purpose and may actually harm others who may be seeking help. The issue is not about AA/12 step, but about you and your son.

Hermia, please accept my sincerest apologies.

Tony, my apologies to you also.. we jointly derailed Hermia's thread. My hope is that you will remove your post and start a new thread surrounding this issue. Thanks so much in advance.

[xenophon]

Lock this thread.

And, from this point on, hold all posts by all posters until approved by a moderator. It is clear to me that such a policy is necessary.

[David O]

xenophon >> Lock this thread. And, from this point on, hold all posts by all posters until approved by a moderator. It is clear to me that such a policy is necessaryLocking the thread would deny hermia access to the ongoing wisdom, compassion, sensitivity and insights of the "family"-- that would not be right, especially when the issue had nothing to do with her. I also would not like to be in a position of policing every post and thread and unilaterally determining the appropriateness of every response and thread.... this would likely have an overall adverse effect on the entire forum.:(

Moderators and administrators would then become Super Gestapos, Thought Police and the Ministry of Truth crew (from Orwell's 1984).



... Little a dewdrop,
Little the minds of men:
All men are not equal in wisdom,
The half-wise are everywhere."
:eek:...............:(...............:mad:

[xenophon]

You do understand that people like to romp and play on the internet. The possible consequences to them are minimal. It is the effect upon others that matter.

[David O]

Good morning Hermia,

I was wondering if you were still with us. Your last post was 10-22. My hope is that we didn't frighten you away and that you still feel comfortable posting here.

David

[Tony J]

You do understand that people like to romp and play on the internet. The possible consequences to them are minimal. It is the effect upon others that matter.



Thank you for bringing up that point, however, most of us have agreed that this thread is not the place for personal gripes.

You are not doing hermia any good by continuing that discussion now that all other parties have agreed to stop. Please take your own advice and put someone other than yourself first. Open a new thread if need to share. :(

[John Rutledge]

deleted .....

[David O]

Little a dewdrop,
Little the minds of men:
All men are not equal in wisdom,

Originally Posted by John Rutledge

The half-wise are everywhere.

Does it take a Super-Moderator to make a super-silly response ? Don't think you got it somehow, David. Or perhaps you did - which might worry me, in a Super-Moderator ... were I disposed to worry ...
JR,

Please tell me you have something relevant to contribute... something which would assist hermia (and many others) in her struggles.

Attempting to provoke a reaction is not the same thing as saying something significant or meaningful. Posts that undermine fellow members are not a shortcut to significance and can hurt the community by making it less safe for people to post. I respectfully ask you to add value to the discussion (as opposed to detracting from it) when and where you're able, contribute relevantly, and refrain from submitting these types of posts in the future.

Respectfully and Sincerely,
David

[John Rutledge]

deleted .....

[Claire Saenz]

JR,

I have for quite a while been impressed by your comments, but this time I have to say I think you are off-base. Your posts directed at David have clearly been provocative and insulting despite your placing them in the form of poetry and literary references. I am not sure what is underneath this sniping, but it clearly isn't adding to the discussion.

Claire

[SweetSue]

Hi hermia,

Well I just thoought I would ask you are these days. I hope that things are working out better for you, and your son.

Please let us know how you are doing, we will help if we can, even if its only to let you know your not on your own and to try and support you.

take care
Jj

[John Rutledge]

deleted .....

[ASchwartz]

Hi Everyone,

In rereading the posts here I hope I can help clarify and soothe some of what may be hurt feelings.

JR is a very talented writer. He is also a very warm and caring man. Gee, JR, hope I'm not embarassing you.

It does not bother me to state that his intelligence is "prodigious." Ooops, there I go again, embarassing JR. Pleae forgive.

In any case, I want to suggest that people ask JR (and each one of us, now that I think of it), for clarification when there is either a feeling of offense or confusion.

JR, I hope it is not true that you will avoid this forum. Please continue to make contributions.

And, all of us, let's ask one another, when it comes up in the form of feeling insulted, confused or intimidated, "Do I understand you? or, Can you explain?"

Human communication is very frail, to say the least.

Allan :)

[xenophon]

hermia, how goes it with you?

[hermia]

Hello all,
No, i haven't posted for a time. No one scared me off...lol I just haven't been able to formulate many cohesive thoughts i can write down. I am truly grateful for the advice and support. Also, i in no way intended to incite arguements or disputes.

Anyway, i'd like you all to know that i continue to read and attempt to assimilate all that you are saying and i am gratefull. I didn't come asking for advice only to allow your thoughful responses to fall on deaf ears or blind eyes.

Thanks
hermia

[David O]

JR and Allan,

JR, let me be clear, whether your 1st post was directed at me or not is immaterial, it was directed within the community to any of us posting on this specific thread: that alone disturbed me and the reasons have already been stated. Your second post requires little interpretation, it is transluscent:

The half-wise are everywhere.

Does it take a Super-Moderator to make a super-silly response ? Don't think you got it somehow, David. Or perhaps you did - which might worry me, in a Super-Moderator ... were I disposed to worry ...

Again, let me be clear, I'm not sure this is the forum for referring to others (in this case me) as "half-wise" (it takes limited intellect to interpret this statement for what it is) or for taking pot shots. I think it undermines and diminishes all of us when members feel a certain liberty to inflame a conversation or to degrade other's wisdom/intelligence.

JR, I should have been more clear and simply stated, as opposed to using the smiley's, that carefully couched statements via poetry or "eloquent" language" that undermine other members, do not belong here. Your apology is that I misunderstood, which is in reality not an apology for what was stated but one for my (and Claire) having misuderstood. Please understand, I'm not seeking an apology, thereby circumventing a potentially separate power struggle.

In most cases, the onus for clarity is with the writer, not with the readers, unless one is writing for oneself and others are simply voyeurs in the process. In this case though, the 2 posts were simple, straightforward and self evident. I did not misuderstand and actually understood all too well.

I'm also not certain "human communication" is frail as much as I am that it is used too often to isolate, create distance, undermine or disenfranchise others. Allan, to refer to JR's intelligence as "prodigious," and joke about it, and subsequently humor other aspects of the situation does no one a service.

Allan and JR, I'm a grateful guest here, and also a servant to the "family". I do this with as much humility, sensitivity, campassion and wisdom as I can offer. My goals have been clear from the start-- to provide help where I can and also to seek it when I need it (and I have several times).

To this end, JR, I only ask to be treated with respect. I offer you the same.

David

[John Rutledge]

deleted ......

[malign]

Can I suggest, please, that nobody leave. There seems little doubt that we're going to make each other angry sometimes, as happens in any gathering of humans given enough time. But if that's enough for us to pick our marbles and go home, well, perhaps we haven't progressed as far as we'd wish.

I can honestly say that I don't enjoy the contributions of all posters equally. Some come across as angry, to me, some vapid, some well-intentioned but clueless. Similarly, I'm quite sure I strike others in a variety of ways, not all of them, sadly, favorable, according to the tastes of those people. But what I do believe we can do is to allow that to happen, and continue to work together to make this community as warm as it is.

[David O]

JR,

My sincerest hope is that you will stay. Your contributions to the community are significant and I think it would be a great loss for us all were you to leave.

We will disagree, become angry and even hurt at times, as I have with you on occasion, and other members with each other-- but we do so with the intent, always, to become better for it and to make us all a richer, more understanding and more compassionate "family".

I think these differences can be worked out and as Malign stated, we will at times make each other angry... such is our lot as members of any family. While we may have had words, this was not what I was hoping for... I wanted us to understand each other and to learn to work together for others and ourselves, even if we need strong language to get there.

Please do stay. Your leaving is not a win for me in any way, but a huge loss since there is now one less voice within us.

Sincerely,
David

[David O]

Hermia,

I'm glad your still with us. This entire thread has been an experience for me, never having been thru this before. You incited no arguments, I think this has been brewing in the background and it erupted on your thread, and for this I am so very sorry.

We are here still and hope that you'll give us a 2nd chance. Can you give us a quick update on where things are at home?

David

[hermia]

Hi David,
No apologies are neccessary. As i said in my last post i continue to read and learn and attempt to assimilate all the great info i've gotten...i have just had some trouble trying to gather my thoughts enough to post something that makes sense and others can understand. Probably because there is so much going on here. To be honest things seem so complicated i could probably post something on each forum here and have it be applicable.

The drug use continues though i haven't had any hospital visits or police interaction for a couple weeks...thank the heavens for that! The girlfriend i mentioned initially, continues to be a huge problem. She no longer lives with us but continues to see my son and cause problems. Her baby is due in less than a month and it seems the closer we get to the due date the more of an issue she becomes. They both still plan to name my son as the baby's father, which he is not. As far as i know they plan to stay together...to what end i am unsure. Yes, it's his choice to make. However i do not believe he's capable of making decisions such as these at this point in his life. He's a drug addict with no job and whole laundry list of mental health issues. He cannot cope with himself let alone a child. I have grown to resent this girl tremendously for the position she's putting my son in. Displaced anger, maybe.

That's it in a nutshell.

hermia


At any rate,

[David O]

Hermia,

Thanks for sticking around... I do feel a relief. I have an appointment in a few minutes but as I read thru your post, noted that you touched on many issues:
1) you son's illness
2) whether or not he has the capacity or is competent to consent/make this decision (which can possibly be legally contested)
3) What and how much you should become involved
4) ongoing addiction issues
5) how mentally ill she may also be

There are other things, but overall, this will require some thought, and I feel like I owe you that much for your patience here. It may take a few of us here to piece this together... I'll check back in about 2-3 hours and hopefully can begin helping you work thru some of this.

David

[JulianP]

deleted.....

[Tony J]

Hermia, I'm glad you're back.

I do hope you'll consider looking into some sort of live support group. Al-Anon comes to mind because it's free and normally available. But any peer support group will do.

You can do so much online but (imho) you can only go so far.

There is, in my experience, alot of comfort and wisdom to be gained from a good support group.

You seem to have alot on your plate. You have some work to do as far as prioritizing things I suspect. May I suggest you put youself as first priority ?
You can very easily drive yourself nuts over this kind of stuff, but you are the 'mature' person in the situation right now. If you get sick over the family situation, you'll be that much less able to help out.

You'll have to sort out what you can control and what you can't and focus on the thing you can. And that will take some time.

[David O]

Hi Hermia,

It took me a little longer than I thought to get back to you, mea culpa! After going back and rereading everything regarding your son, his fiance, her pregnancy and your entire situation, I realized that it's possible you may have taken on much more than need be. I've done this with my children too often and have had to step back before I drown.

Let me suggest an idea and tell me how it fits. Reinhold Niebuhr a great American theologian, in the early 1930's, revised a long existing prayer which was powerful and beautiful in its simplicity. While it's commonly connected to AA/12 step, it was actually for anyone who suffered "and labored in the vineyard." I'm not at all trying to push religion in your direction as much as I'm trying to open you up the the deep wisdom in Niebhur's first 5 lines of his Serenity Prayer:

1) God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
2) courage to change the things I can;
3) and wisdom to know the difference.
4) Living one day at a time;
5) Enjoying one moment at a time

The wisdom here is in how your son's situation applies to you. I know very well how incredibly agonizing this is and the daily and hourly tortures you must be experiencing, and I don't want to diminish this when I suggest that we look at this a bit differently.

Understanding what you can and can't control (line 3) is the first step to managing the situation and gaining back your sanity. Tony is right... your sanity and taking care of yourself has to come first if you're going to be a fully effective and loving parent. Your own emotional resources are directly tied to how well you take care of yourself-- this like in a plane when the oxygen masks come down... first you put yours on, then your child's!

Hermia, if you looked carefully at the situation, can you list what things within this situation you can control and then which ones you can't? This will be a slow process and will take some time, but we're here and will work with you as long as you want us to. Think about it and then list them out for us here. We'll then begin step 2 of deciphering how best to approach this.

Good luck and I await your answer.

[David O]

Hi hermia,

I forgot to add a piece of country wisdom... things I learned from wise folks in the back country that might help us all, but especially for you if your struggling with so many issues, many of which are out of your control:

“If’n you gotta a frog to swaller, don’t look at it too long”.

“If’n you’ve got more than one to swaller, swaller the biggenest one first”.

“Don’t swaller no frogs you ain’t got to swaller”

“Swaller only what ya gotta swaller… no mō and no less.”

OK, I think that this makes more sense than most everything else I’ve ever written on this site as a whole.

Good luck and I hope this helps,
David O

[hermia]

Julian...i'm not all that compassionate or warm hearted...lol I just meant there is a history of all sorts of mental difficulties that are contributing factors to the issue my son and myself are experiencing now that would make the situation applicable to most of the boards here depending on the angle of thought i chose to approach it on any given day. I tend to believe the drug use and gf problem are a sympton of the underlying mental issues. It's just hard to get to those things until the present drama here gets sorted out. Labels, labels, labels...and they all seem to warrent different approaches. Though one label does seem to sum up the entire ball of wax nicely..."dysfunctional family"...lol

Tony...i am taking care of myself. A live group would be nice, but i'm not certain i have the energy for that right now and also i'm not certain which or what type of group is most appropriate. I attended ACOA myself years ago. My ex husband has been emmersed in the AA and NA thing for quite some time now and my experience with him and his attitude has me personally turned off with that whole avenue. But, i am aware that me falling apart isn't going to help my son and i'm doing things to help keep me sane...'s'

David...i'm working on that list. There is very little i can control in this situation other than the very basics. I can provide food to make sure my son is never hungry, i can provide a home so that he always has a place to sleep and be warm. i can make sure i let him know he's always loved by me and i'll always be here for him. Essentially, basic stability. I can't change him, i understand that. I continue to search for ways and means that may help him in changing himself.

line 3 of the serenity prayer "...and the wisdom to know the difference". I think i know the difference with regard to what i can and cannot change. What seems to be screwing with my head is what i'm supposed to and not supposed to change.

hermia

[Tony J]

You know it's kind of funny, I know some people in AA who hate Al Anon because of how it changed their ex-spouses..........

I've never been to an Al Anon meeting but, like I said, they're cheap and available and you will get support. But you have options and you know the game at least a little, which is good.

My boys are both in their teens right now. I keep waiting for something to happen because addiction seems to run in families. But so far so good and I keep praying on it.

It would kill me and I don't even have the 'maternal' instinct, lol. It seems like I was on the floor playing with them just last week. Now the one is taller than me. I can't identify fully with you, but I have an idea. :)


Tony...i am taking care of myself. A live group would be nice, but i'm not certain i have the energy for that right now and also i'm not certain which or what type of group is most appropriate. I attended ACOA myself years ago. My ex husband has been emmersed in the AA and NA thing for quite some time now and my experience with him and his attitude has me personally turned off with that whole avenue. But, i am aware that me falling apart isn't going to help my son and i'm doing things to help keep me sane...'s'



hermia

[David O]

hermia,

I attended Alanon b/c of my son. He was not an alcoholic, but I was a hovering, helicopter parent and it was killing me to see him in pain and b/c he would make decisions, as an adult, that cut to the bone for me. In Alanon, interestingly enough, I never heard a word about alcoholics, 12/step, AA or anything like this... what I learned was how to let go and regain peace. This alone made me stronger and more able to cope and make decisions that were more "therapeutic and healing" for him and for us.

It seems that the issue may not be what to do and not to do, but one of coping with what is happening in such a way that you remain strong, don't deplete all of your emotional resources and are able to help him.

hermia, do you have ongoing battles and conflicts with him? If so, can you give us a description of the 2-3 different kinds? Let us know what it's about and most importantly his response and your reactions to him. Too often, the solution we've fallen on or chosen, becomes the problem.

Maybe if we get more concrete b/c floating above the issues, as I seem to be, has resulted in us not being able to truly offer the right kind of support and wisdom.

David

[hermia]

Tony...didn't mean to downplay the "paternal" instinct, just finding myself having to defend my maternal role on more than one front.

David... there is and always has been constant conflict in my relationship with my son. If i say something is black, he'll say it's white. He may know full well it's black, but he's going to argue to the contrary despite overwhelming proof right in front of him. He's been like this since he was a toddler. For the most part, i stopped arguing about 99% of it years ago.

The most recent conflicts are about the drugs and his pregnant gf. Obviously i want him to stop doing drugs and get some professional help for his problems. I'd also like him to cool it with this girl. I don't want him to allow her to make him the responsible party for a child he had not made. So the worst area of conflict at the moment is the girl and pending arrival of her baby.

I invited her initially into my home, against my better judgement, only to watch her rake him over the coals for the past 2 months. Her arrival has pretty much managed to undo all the progress he's made for the past few years. With this area of conflict, we cannot even argue black vs white anymore. He's simply taken the stance that i "hate" her and reacted to me from that perspective. Just for the record, i didn't hate her. I felt for the girl and her situation...but her behavior over the past 2 months is certainly pushing me in that direction.

hermia

[David O]

David... there is and always has been constant conflict in my relationship with my son. If i say something is black, he'll say it's white. He may know full well it's black, but he's going to argue to the contrary despite overwhelming proof right in front of him. He's been like this since he was a toddler. For the most part, i stopped arguing about 99% of it years ago. When you argue that 1%, do you raise your voice, "nag" him repeatedly over the same issue or do you remain calm, collected and "rational?" One leads to more tension and distress... the other to increased rationality in your discussions.

The most recent conflicts are about the drugs and his pregnant gf. Is she still in the home or did you ask her to leave and she did? If she remains in the home, she needs to leave ASAP, no ifs, ands or buts. If she has left, she should not be allowed to return to see him, even in the yard. There should be no discussion on this point and you can get a PFA or protection from harassment, which you can get in some states if her presence creates problems for you and/or your son. The logic is to keep her away since her behavior maintains his illness, which is dangerous for everyone. Is he doing drugs at home or does he do them elsewhere and come home already high?

Obviously i want him to stop doing drugs and get some professional help for his problems. If he is doing drugs at home and you know it, he must be asked to leave as it can have serious legal ramifications in the event the police become involved.

I'd also like him to cool it with this girl. I don't want him to allow her to make him the responsible party for a child he had not made. So the worst area of conflict at the moment is the girl and pending arrival of her baby. Arguing about her and his relationship with her is closing the door to your ability to reason with him. The addiction issues and mental illness only entrench him with her........ your arguments are likely digging a deeper hole for both of you.

As you know, when parents try to stop or set up barriers between a bf/gf, the couple only solidifies around the intruder and in this case it's you. Having her not in the home or property may do some of this, but it also sets a clear and hard boundary for future issues, which is a missing ingredient in the relationship now, it seems. My suggestion is to stay off the topic, set the boundary and make it clear, if she does come onto the property, the PFA or PFH take effect. He will be angry/hostile with you, but this can't dissuade you. Remember, much of what you're doing with these boundaries is about saving his life from more and more hardship.

I invited her initially into my home, against my better judgement, only to watch her rake him over the coals for the past 2 months. Her arrival has pretty much managed to undo all the progress he's made for the past few years. With this area of conflict, we cannot even argue black vs white anymore. He's simply taken the stance that i "hate" her and reacted to me from that perspective. Just for the record, i didn't hate her. I felt for the girl and her situation...but her behavior over the past 2 months is certainly pushing me in that direction. This may be where you have to exercise great self control. Your only points should be: 1) she can't be on our property, but you can visit with her elsewhere; and, 2) I want you to get well and be healthy, so while you're here, I need it to just be our immediate family. Say no more or say no less!


Hermia, I know well how hard this is, having watched my son abuse alcohol for awhile. But I also know that the pain goes away when you stick to your guns on key issues. What you truly can control are her presence in your home and his abuse of drugs also in your home... all else is grist for the mill and only serves to create distance and hostility between you in unsolvable ways.

hermia

Good luck and I hope these hard sounding words help.
David

[hermia]

Thank you david...you spend an aweful lot of time and thought in your posts not just with me but with all, and i am grateful.

Whether i nag and raise my voice or i'm calm and rational depends on the day and the frustration level at any given moment and of course his particular mood and response. I strive for calm and rational, but it doesn't always work that way.

She's out of my home and it has been made clear that she is not to return. She's been here off and on when i've gone to work and i've made clear, as well, that i will contact the police if i find her here. She no longer comes or calls when i am home. They sneak instead.

The drugs are being done both in and outside my home. This DXM garbage is legal. It's cold medicine in huge quantities. The illegal part is when he chooses to go out in public when under it's influence.

Yes, my arguements about the girl are digging a deeper hole for me.

It's funny all the stuff we know but seem helpless to change.

hermia

[David O]

Thank you david...you spend an aweful lot of time and thought in your posts not just with me but with all, and i am grateful. I'm only paying it forward... in my life there have been many people who loved and cared for me... in return, I hope to be able to do as much for others. Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment, very much appreciated.

Whether i nag and raise my voice or i'm calm and rational depends on the day and the frustration level at any given moment and of course his particular mood and response. I strive for calm and rational, but it doesn't always work that way. So, let's do what I call a 50/50 plan. Starting this week (Sunday) you will not scream or yell/raise your voice on Mondays and Thursdays... the rest of the week, be as you have been. Commit just to this. Do this for 2 weeks and on week 3, add Saturdays so now you have 3 days in which there is no battle. In 6 weeks, add another day: stick to it no matter what, muscle thru, bite your tongue, hook yourself up to an outlet, do anything to not raise your voice.

Here's part 2-- on the days you scream, lower your volume by 10% for week 1, now by another 10% by week 2, then another 10% by week 3... In 2 months, you will be screaming less often and with less loudness--- this will go a long way towards calming you and the waters. Experiment, try this for 30 days at least. Given how long you've been at this, it will take about 1-2 months of consistency to undo 1-2 years of damage and pain. So we're looking at 6-9 months before you'll begin to see real progress. In 9 months we can have a different relationship or we can be where we are, possibly worse since now there will be a baby in the equation.

She's out of my home and it has been made clear that she is not to return. She's been here off and on when i've gone to work and i've made clear, as well, that i will contact the police if i find her here. She no longer comes or calls when i am home. They sneak instead. Inform her that all of the neighbors have been instructed to call the police if she comes onto your property, and see if you can get cooperation from 2-3 of them. If you have a friend who is a cop, have him drop by occasionally as if he got a call that she was around.

The drugs are being done both in and outside my home. This DXM garbage is legal. It's cold medicine in huge quantities. The illegal part is when he chooses to go out in public when under it's influence. Inform him that while you deeply love him, you can't let him throw his life away like this. Once he hears this, tell him that as long as he wishes to live at home, he can stay on the condition that his room and the house will be searched for the cough medicine at random times. If you find any, he'll have to leave for 3 days. On his return, if you find any, he's gone for 6 days-- on his own w/o your help. This will be extremely painful for you and risks severing the relationship. He must know w/o a doubt how much you love him and cry over this, but that your love requires that you protect him from himself.

Yes, my arguements about the girl are digging a deeper hole for me. You know what to do now--- go do it and don't look back.

It's funny all the stuff we know but seem helpless to change. yep, been on that road before and nothing seems more painful than not being able to act on what is best. You still have a chance, please muscle thru this to the other side, you'll be glad you did.

hermia

Good luck again,
David

[Tony J]

Oh, you don't have to defend it. Just figure out how you can do your job as a mother without killing yourself or making yourself crazy in the process.

No easy trick. Every instinct is to protect our children and when they're little we can just pick them up and move them out of harm's way. When they get older we have to use more subtle means of persuasion and possibly learn to let go of certain things.

Even though the children have the urge to follow their own path, we don't loose the instinct to protect them. One of life's little challenges, I guess. :D


Tony...didn't mean to downplay the "paternal" instinct, just finding myself having to defend my maternal role on more than one front.


hermia

[hermia]

...and i didn't yell.

David... i'm attempting to follow your advice. I've known for a week or so that the gf has provided my son with a cell phone. I've put off asking for the number because i knew what his answer would be, but today i did. Let me just say that i'm not really the nagging type. I have never been one of those people who uses the phone just to talk. I use the phone to pass along essential information (ie...will you be coming home this evening?...i'm going to be late..... etc.) and for safety reasons. At any rate, i was told to screw off, just as i'd anticipated. Keeping your suggstions in mind, i merely responded that i felt his refusal was disrespectful and rude considering that i was his mother and requested this only for safety reasons. i didn't yell...i didn't scream...though i'm pretty sure you can guess the level to which this infuriates me.

With regard to telling him he needs to leave for 3 days if i find drugs in the home.... after the phone number conversation he left and i took a look in his room. The waste can is overflowing with empty boxes and bottles of robitussin, delsym, mucinex and the like. We haven't had a conversation with regard to drug use at home vs. outside the home. Honestly, i don't know how i could realistically enforce that.

hermia

[ASchwartz]

Hermia, David and all,

There are a number of comments I wish to make but with the understanding that drug abuse and addiction are complex problems for which there is no one solution.

1. Hermia, it is my opinion, and you and others may certainly disagree with me, that your son's drug abuse problems are not you fault and not your problem. It is only when you disown his drug addiction that you can let him take responsibility for himself and that is what Alanon would tell you. But, forget alanon, the concept is true: You cannot change your son. Only your son can do that, when he is ready.

I urge you, very stronly, to watch a disturbing but honest reality show on A&E called Intervention. It has won well deserved awards and it is very helpful. You should watch it and learn about drug addiction and what families need to do.

David: My comments about JR were not meant simply or only to be humorous. If you go back and read you will see that I was trying to advise everyone to ask for clarification when a comment is made of the type that JR made. You may assume that you knew what he mean but I do not think so. For one, I do not know what he meant.

Human communication is extremely frail. Partly, it is made frail by our own fraility as you correctly point out. It is not just that you are frail, but, that we are all frail. We all suffer from "the slings and arrows of misguided fortune." Here, on the Internet, it is especially easy to feel very sensitive to what others write or to what we "believe" they write. Immanuel Kant said it best when he noted about "knowing" that (this is paraphrase) we know the world (perceive the world) but the world conforms to our way of knowing. In other words, each of us has different perceptions of the world, of each other, of what someone said, wrote, heard, etc. In my way of knowing, a picture is beautiful and in your way of knowing, the very same picture is ugly. Who is correct? Neither of us. That is what I am referring to with JR. We need to clarify and to ask the other person what they really mean.

Hermia: In my opinion, you need to get really tough with your son, including telling him to move out if he does not stop the drug abuse and get help.

Allan

[David O]

...and i didn't yell. Good! Keep this up, it will come around once he hears the quiet, determined, unequivocal voice of the parent who truly loves him.

David... i'm attempting to follow your advice. I've known for a week or so that the gf has provided my son with a cell phone. I've put off asking for the number because i knew what his answer would be, but today i did. Let me just say that i'm not really the nagging type. I have never been one of those people who uses the phone just to talk. I use the phone to pass along essential information (ie...will you be coming home this evening?...i'm going to be late..... etc.) and for safety reasons. At any rate, i was told to screw off, just as i'd anticipated. You tried... and your logic was and feelings about the need for the number were in the right place.

My Keeping your suggstions in mind, i merely responded that i felt his refusal was disrespectful and rude considering that i was his mother and requested this only for safety reasons. OK... here is where it gets dicey. My thinking is that you pull out completely from any discussions which involve hurt feelings- it only further damages the relationship. Since you guys seem to have arrived at a very painful (for you) impasse, your next step is to pull away emotionally (within yourself-- and this will be painful I know) and limit conversation to essential information. The only essentials, especially since he's abusing meds at your home, is that he know what he faces:" ___, if I see or find any evidence of drug abuse/alcohol in my house, you'll have to leave for 3 days. This means you'll have to pack some clothes and find another place to stay." This is the end of the sentence- say it once to him in a flat, matter-of-fact, completely un-emotional, robotic tone. Then turn around and walk away. Be clear and show intent. Whatever he says, do not respond unless he is apologizing or trying to make amends.

i didn't yell...i didn't scream...though i'm pretty sure you can guess the level to which this infuriates me. The key is your calmness, there's no need to inflame the relationship by fueling the fire. His level of contempt is strong and your goal is to re-establish balance by having him know the boundaries of the house and the limits of your tolerance. Hermia, I don't mean to sound cold and harsh, this is just simply that, a tough, hard way to still love someone whose turned his back on you.

With regard to telling him he needs to leave for 3 days if i find drugs in the home.... after the phone number conversation he left and i took a look in his room. The waste can is overflowing with empty boxes and bottles of robitussin, delsym, mucinex and the like. We haven't had a conversation with regard to drug use at home vs. outside the home. Honestly, i don't know how i could realistically enforce that. You make the rule known, tell him he will remove himself or you will have him removed by the police, on the spot. If he won't budge, call the police right then and there. If he begins to make motions to leave after you've called or picked up the phone, complete the call no matter what. If he destroys property, then he's out for a month or until he pays for the damages. There should be no equivocation on your part. This is a small battle that looks huge, painful and difficult as it is, but one that has to be fought in order to really have a voice in his life. You need to tell yourself that the decision was/is his, not yours. He decided he would rather be on drugs than have a shelter and food. Make sure he knows the door is open for his return (and that he will always be loved, no matter what), conditional that he obey the house rules, once he's done his time.

Hermia, this is a battle fought daily everywhere. I talk to parents with these struggles and we eventually do arrive at a tough love place after everything else has been exhausted.

Hermia, do you know if he takes these drugs compulsively because he hates himself or b/c he may feel as if no one loves and cares about him? If so, the tough love has to be done in a way that lets him know that it's love and not anger and hatred that drives these decisions. Is it possible that drugs allowed him to blot out that depressive self-focus and allow him to socialize as if everything was okay. If this is the case, what you do has to be done w/o emotion or the need to one-up or punish him.

Finally, do you know what role his mental health issues play in this?
hermia

Good luck... please stick with it,
David

[JulianP]

deleted.....

[hermia]

Hi everyone and thanks again. I continue to read avidly and attempt to implement your advice to the level i find myself capable at any given moment. The thing is, the whole situation is rather mind boggling for me. I'm sure all of you are well aware of the range of crap that floats around in one's head when in a situation of this sort.

Some days, taking a break from dealing with it, thinking about it, and trying to do something about it, is what seems to be called for. Hmm...denial? detachment? delusional? self preservation? You get the drift :rolleyes:

hermia

[David O]

Good morning Hermia,

I read your posts in the addictions section. With the more complete picture, as expressed there, my responses and recommendations here would have been entirely different.

Minus your husband's support, you are essentially disempowered in your own home, and your son realizes this. Given this, the solution lies with your having a unified front: going it alone further disempowers you and sends your son deeper into his problem.

Clearly I should have asked more questions. My apologies.
David

[hermia]

Hi david,
No apology is required. Your advice is great and i appreciate it. I can't always find the clarity of mind to answer all the questions asked anyway. I make comments here and there where i feel i might have something pertinent to add. People are complex and it's tough to get a handle on what they're all about from a few posts. Bigger pictures unfold slowly with each comment made.

When asking for advice regarding my son, i relayed all i could think of at the time that might be important info related to his troubles. I just assumed with all the comments i made about my "ex" people would understand it was just myself and my son in my home.

Actually i am pretty disempowered here. That's nothing new, but i don't think it's due to the absence of his father. I've been seperated from him since my son was just a toddler. His father has had limited involvement over the years but essentially i was it. I'd like to think i'm the ruler of the roost and don't require the assistance of a male counterpart to perform my parenting duties.

I've never really had the support of his dad. He comes and goes as he sees fit. Home, family, and parenting has always been MOM. Over the years my son has developed quite the dislike of his father. I'm sure some of that has come from me and my frustration with his fathers attitudes but honestly...i generally have always taken the stance...tried to run some interference for my son's well being...that his father loves him. His actions and attitudes...his presence or lack there of...are the result of his own problems that have nothing to do with my son or his behavior. In short, i've tried to maintain mentally healthy responses and limit my giving in to the ugly beast of mental illness that seems to run amuck in our family in one form or another.

But ya...right now i am disempowered but it's more to do with a teenage son than the lack of support from dad.

hermia

[JulianP]

deleted....

[David O]

Hermia,

Too many angles, so many different places to read about this, and JP is right... I never wanted to imply you needed a male counterpart, I thought your ex was still in the picture and simply was undermining your efforts. If he's out of the picture and it's just you and your son, then let me be straightforward-- you are fully empowered but have opted not to exercise it or to be so. I don't mean this meanly at all, I say this as a parent of 2 grown children and two step children... it is said with great humility, compassion, empathy and understanding.

This has developed over the years and it has arrived at this point. Given this, what recommendations I had above are still very applicable. My suggestion, just like JP's, is that you become strong, take care of yourself, take your time and then when you're ready-- be powerful, firm and assertive, don't withhold, don't back down and don't give up. You'll likely only get one and maybe two cracks at it, so buckling could be extremely expensive.

Each of you has taught the other how you want to be treated: parents and children do this daily (as do spouses, co-workers, friends, family), it just depends on which messages get thru and are reinforced thru time. You've taught him (by default) _____________________. He in turn has taught you _______________ (just fill in the blanks). Now comes a new lesson that must be retaught and relearned (or taught and learned for the first time), and that is that you will be respected in your own home, period.

David

[hermia]

Hi Julian,
After i posted my response to David i had afterthoughts that i probably misinterpreted his intent and considered trying to pull my post because i came across as being on a soapbox. I let it ride figuring that the more everyone knows about me and my own attitudes, the better informed they'll be in offerring advice. David takes a lot of time and effort in responding to others. His advice is appropriate and his responses genuine and heartfelt i believe. Where the energy for that comes from i don't know, but it is very appreciated. Not just him, but all of you.

The support of the husband/father/male counterpart thing is just one of my personal issues. A button so to speak. I understand how children identify with each parent. I know the importance of the relationships and a fair idea of the problems that may occur when the relationships aren't quite healthy. I've gone to battle in my own mind on that front for many years.

Julian...i don't want credit or praise. Most of the time i see myself as a pisspoor example of a mother. I just love my kid more than life itself and all i really want is to see him start functioning as a productive, reasonably happy member of the human race. I have faith in my heart that one of these days he going to "get it". That things will eventually fall into place with him.

I sure have said alot today for starting out with nothing to say because my thoughts weren't coming together.

Thanks for listening
hermia

[hermia]

Just thought i'd post an update for those who had participated in the thread. I really haven't had much opportunity to put into action many of the suggestions given to me... mostly because contact with my son has been pretty limited lately.

His gf had her baby on sunday. I was granted an approximately 3 minute conversation afterwards to get answers to all the burning questions.. is it healthy? what's she weigh? etc... The conversation was ended by my son after i asked the baby's name and then blew a gasket at the answer. Sorry david...i wanted to be calm...but the answer threw me for a loop and i went through the roof. I'll just say the meaning of her first name is "angel of death" and she shares my last name. In case any of you had forgotten my initial story...he is not the child's father. He only met this girl in march of this year.

I've been in contact with this girl's parents over the last few weeks and have learned some of her history. For now, suffice to say, it's worse than my son's. Her parents came to the hospital and talked her into going home with them for a "week or 2" to recover (they fear for the baby's wellbeing). She still has no real home and has been staying with friends since i asked her to leave my home. She has the resources to make a home for herself and her baby though she has chosen not to for whatever reason. My son went with them. He seems hellbent on sticking by this girl and pretending to be the child's father even though she's raking him over the coals.

There's alot more to the story, but that's the gist of it. He's still doing the DXM crap and has not made any effort to change it and now there's a baby to consider.

hermia

[xenophon]

That is a tough situation. Perhaps her parents retain some sort of positive influence on her. Please stay as calm as you can.

[Tony J]

Angel of Death ? Is it a goth thing ??

Poor baby. She can change it when she gets old enough.

It sounds like two stupid kids (I was a stupid kid once) who are dying for attention or something. Your story is killing me.
On the one hand, I know the thing to do is let your son handle this thing on his own. On the other, I feel your pain.

I still think you need to work on yourself. I don't know exactly what that means but if you let your son drive you to an early grave you won't be there for him when he matures a little and can use your help and advice. 18 is a tough age for boys. At least it was for me, I put my family through some similar crap. No pregnancy though, but I assure you I was a mess. And I grew up in time. Even though I was an alcoholic I still grew out of that immature, wild stage. Now I'm just embarassed when I think about it. Too many hormones, too little brains I guess.

Your family is in my prayers. Peace.






Just thought i'd post an update for those who had participated in the thread. I really haven't had much opportunity to put into action many of the suggestions given to me... mostly because contact with my son has been pretty limited lately.

His gf had her baby on sunday. I was granted an approximately 3 minute conversation afterwards to get answers to all the burning questions.. is it healthy? what's she weigh? etc... The conversation was ended by my son after i asked the baby's name and then blew a gasket at the answer. Sorry david...i wanted to be calm...but the answer threw me for a loop and i went through the roof. I'll just say the meaning of her first name is "angel of death" and she shares my last name. In case any of you had forgotten my initial story...he is not the child's father. He only met this girl in march of this year.

I've been in contact with this girl's parents over the last few weeks and have learned some of her history. For now, suffice to say, it's worse than my son's. Her parents came to the hospital and talked her into going home with them for a "week or 2" to recover (they fear for the baby's wellbeing). She still has no real home and has been staying with friends since i asked her to leave my home. She has the resources to make a home for herself and her baby though she has chosen not to for whatever reason. My son went with them. He seems hellbent on sticking by this girl and pretending to be the child's father even though she's raking him over the coals.

There's alot more to the story, but that's the gist of it. He's still doing the DXM crap and has not made any effort to change it and now there's a baby to consider.

hermia

[hermia]

Thanks xenophon, i'm trying to stay calm. Calm or enraged...neither state seems to ellicit change, so i suppose calm is best then.

Tony..been working on myself for a long, long time. There's a certain measure of guilt that comes from the selfishness of that though. Funny business trying to even all that out, eh? I was a wild child too. I grew up. Certainly not by age 18. The difference between myself and my son is that i had fear. I was afraid of consequence and thats what kept me from going over the line. I drew that line myself. I really had no adults around to do it for me. The fear of consequences seems to mean nothing to him. I hope and pray ( to God, to the little green man, to the maker, to the higher power) that his line is only a notch above mine and he will eventually "get it".

I hear alot of talk about hitting the bottom. How we don't learn our lessons until we hit bottom. I guess the bottom is a different place for each of us. For my ex, i understand that the bottom is when he was forced to live in a car in a campground shunned by his family. For other people it's the loss of a job, a home, or family. My level of fear is lower i guess...i'll risk less. Alot more than the average "normal" person but alot less than some. I imagine it's all to do with what a person finds intolerable.

Some days i say alot here (on this forum), other days i can say nothing. Mostly i just want to retain some hope that one day i can look back with my kid and say that was rough but you got through, we got through. I don't want my son to become a statistic. "1 in 4 children that come from broken homes have severe psychological problems..."1 in 5 children that experiment with marijuana have drug addiction issues as adults"..."1 in 3 children who have an alchoholic parent will commit a felony"......................whatever the odds, the statistics..............they suck... i just want to believe my kid is going to be ok eventually.

thanks for listening
hermia

[JulianP]

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[JulianP]

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[hermia]

Julian...thanks...just...thanks :)

Funny thoughts your letter provoked. I've "written" hundreds of similar letters in my head. I'm not the most positive person...in general...and probably less so with my son. I know that's taken a toll on him. Just how much of a toll i don't really know.

I remember, years ago, in some of the IEP meetings at school, it being suggested that i focus on positive reinforcement. So..i'd come home determined to find something that evening to comment on that was positive. Then the phone would ring and his grandmother would tell me he refused to get on the bus that morning for school so she had to take him and she was late for work. Then i'd sort through the various messages from teachers saying he had detention for this infraction or that infraction. After that maybe dinner which he'd refuse and homework which was a fight. After that perhaps a visit from a neighborhood parent telling of something else that he'd done. And so it went on...one day like the rest. There was little opportunity for positive reinforcement. Years went by and the "infractions" became more serious.

I remember too when i was growing up. Getting credit for things i felt were not qualities i had. "You are intelligent"..."You are caring"...You're this or that...it really felt hollow. Unless i could balance the comments with something i felt inside i kind of resented them and used them to build a rather negative self image. With my son, i didn't want that to happen so i tried to base my positive comments on things that really deserved a compliment. Trouble was..they were few and far between. Eventually i settled into an attitude that said "i don't like your behavior but i will always love you."

I'm not sure where i'm going with this...it's just what's in my mind right now. I guess i'll just post this part then make an attempt of telling a story about a brick.

hermia

[hermia]

The brick...lol

From 4th grade on my son has done poorly in school. It wasn't from lack of intelligence but more to do with attitude. He simply refused to participate. Be it by refusing to attend or just sleeping through his classes. Prior to that he was an honor roll student. When he was 15, his behaviors had grown so bad that that he was placed in a detention facility that was run like a boot camp. After months of trying to buck the system and being miserable, he seemingly blossomed. He "got with the program" so to speak. He obtained his GED, "graduated" from this program, and was sent to an independent living facilty where he attended school to learn a trade, worked a job, and saved his money. His chosen trade was masonry. I was filled with pride at his accomplishments. Yes, he was forced to do this...but that never stopped him before. If he didn't want to do something, no amount of force or the inevitable consequences could change his mind. So this...this accomplishment...was real! Finally, something positive to focus on!

I wanted him to know just how proud i was. What to do? What to say? How to show him my pride....

I got a brick. On that brick, i had inscribed "our name Masonry..est. 2009". I wrote a letter telling him of my pride and my hope for the future. I wrote how one day he could use that brick in building something he cherished, and how this was the start of his destiny...which HE controlled.

That was May. This is now November. I'm trying hard to view this situation as just a setback. My kid is going to get this business of life...eventually.


Again..thanks for listening...and thanks for the support and feedback.

hermia

[JulianP]

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[Luna-]

I don't want my son to become a statistic. "1 in 4 children that come from broken homes have severe psychological problems..."1 in 5 children that experiment with marijuana have drug addiction issues as adults"..."1 in 3 children who have an alchoholic parent will commit a felony"......................whatever the odds, the statistics..............they suck... i just want to believe my kid is going to be ok eventually.
Hi hermia, hope you are still around? I've only just caught this thread. I just want to offer a little thing that helped me, concerning discouraging statistics.

I was finally diagnosed Bipolar1 a year back, after my whole adult life of it. I read myself silly and of course the statistics weren't encouraging, especially not the one that said that 1 in 4 bipolars die from suicide.

But one day I was musing (and no doubt was less depressed) and suddenly it struck me, "hold on, but that means that THREE QUARTERS of bipolars DON'T commit suicide. The stats were actually in my favour! I'd never seen it that way before. Now I make sure to remember this when I read those depressing stats. Yes, it's still far more likely than in the "normal" population, but it's still LESS likely to occur. (Besides, I left "normal" behind so long ago that that is not even relevant any more.)

Just in case it helps you or anyone else...