Reducing Reputation

[malign]

I feel a need to express my outrage at the emerging practice of using the site's reputation system to disapprove of a post, purely on philosophical grounds.

We are not a popularity contest. The sole reason that the reputation is in existence is to provide a way to examine posts for potential spam sources.

It has subsequently been used as an anonymous way to encourage fellow posters, and that's fine. But I find it to be completely against our mission as a support site to indicate disapproval in this way, especially anonymously. Posts that are, in fact, in violation of the Terms of Service of the site should be reported to the administrators/moderators using the button for that purpose. We will take appropriate action to protect our members.

However, that protection does not extend to removing opinions you'd simply rather not hear. Life doesn't work that way. Moreover, the fact that the only two people I have seen with reputations lower than 5 happen to be on the same side in a certain ongoing debate which shall remain nameless is just deplorable. "Deplorable" means that I can't think of a printable word strong enough at the moment.

I'm still shaking my head in disbelief.

[SweetSue]

Got to agree with you there Mark, I know the threads that you are on about and personally think it is out of order that this behavior has started up. Ive only been here a while and have always felt welcome here and have tried to be conciderate of peoples experiences and values.
I hope that this kind of thing stops, this is a safe community and I dont like that it is becoming judgemental in this way :(

And for the two people you are on about .........
Keep your chins up and well thankyou for your insightful posts, they have helped many people I am sure :)

Hope that we can all just get along with each other and respect everyones experience and oppinions :)

[Donna]

i agree and it's very wrong and unfair to send a bad rep simply because you disagree with somebody, but it might be that sometimes people are hitting the wrong button sometimes as well?

funnily enough today ive had two bad reps sent but they both came with nice comments and with my intro post i got a bad rep as well as a good one,but i dont think that post would have deserved a bad rep, it was just a regular intro.

i think i know what thread you're talking about and if so then one of the contributors to that thread sent me the nice comment along with the 'bad rep' lol so i guess it can easily be done.

im probably confusing everything sorry!

[GingerSnap]

It took me the longest time to figure out what you all were talking about. I have given reputation points and never even noticed you could disapprove. As you all know, if I disapprove I don't do it hiding behind a reputation thingy. I am generally annoyed with people who don't have backbone and makes me want to stick a broom handle up their fanny so they can sit upright.:D If someone doesn't step forward and make a case for disagreement, they do nothing but waste my time with their opinion. Yes, I suppose that is rude and harsh.

[Donna]

i dont think it's rude or harsh, just honest, people should either respectfully say what they think or say nothing at all.

i do have to laugh at your fanny comment though lol cos here in the UK the fanny is at the direct opposite part of the anatomy!

[David O]

Thanks Mark for that explanation. The title "Reputation" implies that there is a socially transmitted belief or value regarding a specific behavior from a poster.

Despite this definition (from my view) I've been the culprit in some regards, based on what you've explained, giving points not to people I agree with, but to those whose post provides remarkable insights, helps others substantively, or contributes to the health of the community significantly, thereby encouraging constructive posting.

Likewise I've been guilty of giving negative reputation points 2-3 times, not b/c I disagreed with a poster's philosophic stance, but b/c the poster repeatedly used language or put forth ideas (e.g., referring to members they disagree with by using insulting comments, language or inflammatory statements) that hurt other members despite attempts via pm's and on the forum to have them show respect for fellow members.

Thanks Mark for the brief tutorial and clarification.

[malign]

Okay, David, I can agree with the reasons you give.
I think what's happening is that we need clarification on what disciplinary actions we can take in the situations you describe. That will probably have to come from the admins.

It's possible that the reputation system will end up being that action, I don't know. I know that moderators have a capability to "ban" people for variable lengths of time, but that seems to me to be a fairly extreme step. Yet I can see that people have at times ignored requests to be more civil.

Unfortunately, the reputation system does not have very many safeguards: anyone, not just moderators, can use it, and its use is anonymous, which prevents auditing of the actions. I see those as huge drawbacks in using it as a general purpose disciplinary system

I think we have to run this issue past the administration, and see what they think.

[JulianP]

deleted....

[malign]

We already have a "Report Post" button, it's the exclamation point right next to the Reputation button. Any member can report a post in that fashion.

The problem is that it still takes a moderator or admin reading their e-mail and coming to remove the spam. A dedicated spammer can make quite a mess in just a few minutes. The New User thing at least limits them to messing up just one forum.

That said, I don't personally believe it's buying us very much, either. :-)

[SweetSue]

ok just a quick thought, not sure if any of you guys have already suggested this coz well im too lazy to read the whole thread :)

Is it possible that there could be a way that when you add rep or take it away that your user name automatically gets recorded , like it does when you post a thread or comment ?

That way if someone is offensive toward another member it will be recorded as to who the culprit is.

Just a idea, probably already been mentioned, :D

thats it really

[malign]

No, your idea is a new one, Sue.

We'll have to ask 'Mark' what the software is capable of. I thought there was some value to giving positive reputation, as encouragement, anonymously, because it might make people more willing to do it. But it doesn't seem right to allow it to be taken away anonymously. But then, it doesn't seem right to me that it should be taken away, unless that's how we decide to discipline unruly members. And then, it should be done by admins.

Or, we could run it as a popularity contest, but then it shouldn't restrict where people can post. And we'd have to decide what to do about negative numbers. ;-)

Ah well, that's why 'Mark' gets paid the big bucks. :-)

[John Rutledge]

I feel a need to express my outrage at the emerging practice of using the site's reputation system to disapprove of a post, purely on philosophical grounds.

We are not a popularity contest. The sole reason that the reputation is in existence is to provide a way to examine posts for potential spam sources.

It has subsequently been used as an anonymous way to encourage fellow posters, and that's fine. But I find it to be completely against our mission as a support site to indicate disapproval in this way, especially anonymously. Posts that are, in fact, in violation of the Terms of Service of the site should be reported to the administrators/moderators using the button for that purpose. We will take appropriate action to protect our members.

However, that protection does not extend to removing opinions you'd simply rather not hear. Life doesn't work that way. Moreover, the fact that the only two people I have seen with reputations lower than 5 happen to be on the same side in a certain ongoing debate which shall remain nameless is just deplorable. "Deplorable" means that I can't think of a printable word strong enough at the moment.

I'm still shaking my head in disbelief.

... I think that you are confusing the issue. It is not a matter of disagreeing with the line taken in certain posts, and by certain posters. It is, actually, a matter of the view taken of the motivation and methodology of certain posters. I do realise that in a certain area, it may be difficult to distinguish. Not impossible, however. Moderators may have this difficulty - fine. They may have difficulty making the distinction - fine. However, denigrating those who have used the reputation system to signal disapproval of suspect posters - that is, with respect, somewhat simplistic, inappropriate, and rather insulting. You may disagree - but there it is.

By the way - I freely confess that I am a "guilty party" in this regard. In return, I request that you delete my 25 reputation points - in view of recent events In Here, they mean little to me anyway. Please do it.

Best regards,

[ASchwartz]

Hi Everyone,

I agree with both JR and Malign as both of you make valid points. Part of what is happening, I believe, is that some of the issues being discussed and argued, arouse a huge amount of emotional heat. In that heated atmosphere, some of us boil over and say things that are uncalled. I am referring to statements that insult, curse, denigrate and attempt to reduce others.

I do not believe anyone involved in this is "bad" or evil. Rather, and I will repeat, I think it has to do with the heat, with losing tempers, something I can be guilty of.......yes, even me :eek:

I am not joking to make light of things but to try to demonstrate my belief that humor can defuse tense situations.

Anyway, my position is that we need to tone down the rhetoric. By tone down, I do not mean agree with or go along with. What I mean is, avoid using offensive language and avoid using statements that are accusatory or demeaning.

I would rather see everyone express their disagreement in words rather than using the "rep" button. The rep button was started as a way to reinforce those who are active in the community and not to punish. Actually, I did not realize, until the other day, that the rep can be used to criticize.

Can't we have debate and heated debate but without insult??

Allan

[John Rutledge]

... you are a voice of reason and balance In Here. I might remark that one post in the "dead zone" that gave rise to this discussion raises serious doubt, to say the least, as to whether the reports under the reputation reporting system are actually confidential, as Malign suggests in an earlier post in this thread. Anybody interested in the matter can examine, and draw their own conclusions.

Beyond that - I renew my request to Malign for the erasure of my 25 reputation points. Since I have sinned to the extent suggested in Malign's initial post in this thread, this course of action seems appropriate. Nothing else occurs at this time.

[malign]

John,

This is actually part of what concerns me about the atmosphere of tension that the AA debate has caused on the site: you felt insulted by what I said, but you don't expect me to consider your feelings respectfully when you express them in return. But that's the minimum we owe our fellow human beings, in my opinion. I regret that the tone of the ongoing debate has strayed so far from that premise.

I'm sorry if what I said insulted you. I was, as I noted in the post itself, somewhat upset, and I apologize. I may still disagree with you about the use of the reputation system, but I'd rather discuss it and come to a consensus of the membership. That's the actual reason for me beginning a thread, though I can see that my emotions were still somewhat too evident.

My only goal for being here as a person, for being here as a moderator, and for bringing up this particular subject, is to make this place as safe as I can for people to talk about mental health issues. I believe that, in your own way, that was also your intent, so in the end, we have only to discuss implementation. Could we do that without either of us needing to vacate the premises?

I'm certainly not interested in holding your sword while you fall on it. I'd rather put the swords away and talk this thing out.

Please?
Mark

[Claire Saenz]

Interesting discussion. I have to say, I agree with Julian--I don't see why we need the reputation point system at all. I don't think it adds anything. I can't believe that new posters are going to be encouraged or discouraged by the number. I'm sure a welcoming atmosphere is far more useful in that regard than an obscure "reputation" number at the top of the post (I bet most people don't even notice it).

Claire

[McGowdog]

delete please

[John Rutledge]

John,

This is actually part of what concerns me about the atmosphere of tension that the AA debate has caused on the site: you felt insulted by what I said, but you don't expect me to consider your feelings respectfully when you express them in return. But that's the minimum we owe our fellow human beings, in my opinion. I regret that the tone of the ongoing debate has strayed so far from that premise.

I'm sorry if what I said insulted you. I was, as I noted in the post itself, somewhat upset, and I apologize. I may still disagree with you about the use of the reputation system, but I'd rather discuss it and come to a consensus of the membership. That's the actual reason for me beginning a thread, though I can see that my emotions were still somewhat too evident.

My only goal for being here as a person, for being here as a moderator, and for bringing up this particular subject, is to make this place as safe as I can for people to talk about mental health issues. I believe that, in your own way, that was also your intent, so in the end, we have only to discuss implementation. Could we do that without either of us needing to vacate the premises?

I'm certainly not interested in holding your sword while you fall on it. I'd rather put the swords away and talk this thing out.

Please?
Mark

Hello, Malign,

Thank you for the considered response. Actually, I regret, and apologise for, my use of the reputation system in this respect. I can offer no excuse, other than that even I have my "inflamed" moments. In this instance, I thought it better to express my unease about certain tendencies In Here in this particular way, rather than feeding the flames through a post. This was a mistake. As my old Irish granny (Gods rest her !) used to say, "If you have nothing good to say - say nothing". I concede that doing nothing would also have been better in this case. My views in the substantive matter, however, have not changed.

It may also be noted that I have not been slow to add reputation liberally - my sin in this case is balanced against many, many increases in reputation to posters in various areas of the Forum. McGowdog may be amused to note that I added reputation on his first post!

Reading Claire's comments, I am moved myself to wonder about the utility of the reputation as it is currently constituted. While the New Members' "reservation" attempts to address a serious problem with potential spam, the apparent link with reputation points when it comes to "escaping" is less than clear, and may be causing problems for new and potential posters. In the instant matter, it seems unfortunate that this matter has come to attention in this particular way, opening the danger of a sort of alternative flame war - precisely the sort of thing I would want to avoid. One adjustment might simply be to make the reputation system an "add-only" function ? No doubt, administrators and moderators will be considering such options.

Finally, as to helping a person fall on his sword, you will no doubt recall that, in societies in which this was practiced, it was deemed an honourable office.

Thanks again for your response, and best regards,

[Claire Saenz]

I am wondering how a point system of any kind assists with the spam problem. Isn't spam a yes/no thing? Wouldn't the "new members" section alone be enough to identify it?

Claire

[John Rutledge]

I am wondering how a point system of any kind assists with the spam problem. Isn't spam a yes/no thing? Wouldn't the "new members" section alone be enough to identify it?

Claire

You may recall that the introduction of the New Members' "reservation" followed a particularly unpleasant occurrance, in which a first (and only) time poster spread a set of blatantly pornographic images liberally around the forum. I have my problems with the "reservation" - but I suppose that it means at least that any new spam poster (and such entities are generally once-off posters) will be confined to posting in the "reservation", where they can be swiftly identified, Deleted and, if appropriate, banned. Not a complete answer but, at least, I can understand it.

On the more general point of the utility of the reputation system, another thought occurred to me. Perhaps, as you say, most people don't really notice reputation ratings (better that nobody did, perhaps, in view of recent events) but they are there, so we should consider what it is that they actually amount to. I am not sure how many people bother to give reputation ratings, but I suspect it is a distinct minority. This means that ratings are appearing that are the result of contributions of a small number of members (like me) which may not remotely resemble the feelings of the membership in general. If, as appears from this recent controversy, there is not a clear understanding of the reputation system even among those of us who bother to use it, and if the results are not really representative of the general view In Here as regards the merit of particular posts and posters, perhaps we would be better off without it.

With best regards,

[McGowdog]

delete please

[Tony J]

Damn, I was almost down to zero. I wanted to see what would happen......:p

I noticed right away that I was loosing points. In fact another poster pm'ed me to give me a little support. But, other than the amusment factor and the curiosity or what would happen if I got to zero, I can't say I care in the least.

My self image is in no way connected to this forum, let alone any rep points I may or may not get on it.

I say, it's a non issue. Let people run around and delete each other's rep points if they want too.

A safe environment is a good thing, but uber control issues can squash communication.



I feel a need to express my outrage at the emerging practice of using the site's reputation system to disapprove of a post, purely on philosophical grounds.

We are not a popularity contest. The sole reason that the reputation is in existence is to provide a way to examine posts for potential spam sources.

It has subsequently been used as an anonymous way to encourage fellow posters, and that's fine. But I find it to be completely against our mission as a support site to indicate disapproval in this way, especially anonymously. Posts that are, in fact, in violation of the Terms of Service of the site should be reported to the administrators/moderators using the button for that purpose. We will take appropriate action to protect our members.

However, that protection does not extend to removing opinions you'd simply rather not hear. Life doesn't work that way. Moreover, the fact that the only two people I have seen with reputations lower than 5 happen to be on the same side in a certain ongoing debate which shall remain nameless is just deplorable. "Deplorable" means that I can't think of a printable word strong enough at the moment.

I'm still shaking my head in disbelief.

[David O]

I would suggest any of the 4 options:


we keep the existing system and that we educate newcomers/ everyone on the proper use of it
that it be eliminated completely
that members be allowed only to give points but not take away
that it be used as the first level spam filter as initially designed, but once a member has reached a certain point level that suggests they're not spammers (e.g., 10 or 12 points) that the points cap out and are no longer accessible to "voting" by others
++ any other solutions may create more problems than they solve.


My 2ȼ!

[McGowdog]

delete please

[SweetSue]

youre not a spammer McgowDog.

oh, I dont know !!!!

Cant we all just be nice to each other and show a little respect.

Theres enough hurt around without creating more. Were all adults here, surely we can trust ourself to behave civilised toward one another, please

[seaj]

I must say I'm now more confused than I was when initially reading what this was all about.

But what David O expressed in his first post was how I came to understand it. I'll repost it so no-one has to go find it:
"... giving points not to people I agree with, but to those whose post provides remarkable insights, helps others substantively, or contributes to the health of the community significantly, thereby encouraging constructive posting.

Likewise I've been guilty of giving negative reputation points 2-3 times, not b/c I disagreed with a poster's philosophic stance, but b/c the poster repeatedly used language or put forth ideas (e.g., referring to members they disagree with by using insulting comments, language or inflammatory statements) that hurt other members despite attempts via pm's and on the forum to have them show respect for fellow members."

Though I haven't been here very long, I have been at other boards before and ones following this very format and I think what he spoke of is a very excellent way to use the "reputation" option.

Interesting discussion. I have to say, I agree with Julian--I don't see why we need the reputation point system at all. I don't think it adds anything. I can't believe that new posters are going to be encouraged or discouraged by the number. I'm sure a welcoming atmosphere is far more useful in that regard than an obscure "reputation" number at the top of the post (I bet most people don't even notice it).

Claire

I have to disagree. I think they have the potential of being really quite constructive, if not to all, at least to people who care about their impact. I'm new and did notice the "obscure reputation number". I will say I noticed it most when I wrote a response specifically sharing advice with someone (something I was reluctant at first to do). For that thread someone gave me a positive reputation point that helped me feel confident the next time I felt the desire to share advice again.

Without hijacking a thread or having to PM me, I felt someone had given me a little nudge to let me know that I was on the right path and to keep on with the way I was going. Being new and not knowing the manner of speech people responded to and what went down okay, etc, etc, that was a big help for me. Someone had taken a little bit of time out of their day to acknowledge something I’d put thought into sharing and I appreciate what feels like a pat on the back or a little piece of encouragement. I do realise some posters say such things in their posts, but not everyone is like that or feels comfortable doing that.

And well, I guess I haven’t been here long enough to have a more well-rounded opinion than that. But I will say, being restricted to the one forum when I did join did feel frustrating, so I imagine it would be a massive turn off for someone whose sole purpose was to spam. I just remember at the time wishing I understood why I was restricted.

[Tony J]

I think it's interesting that it's being used to control how a poster thinks.
If you repeat the pablum that the 'controlers' of the group like, they bump up your rep. If not they bump it down.

It's a way for the ones who see themselves as 'alpha' to control the ones they see at 'beta'.

When you get a poster like me who either doesn't care or is happy to have his reps diminished, then it creates all kinds of chaos among the would be 'alphas'.

The world would be perfect if only they would all liten to me....lol !!!

[David O]

Tony J>> I think it's interesting that it's being used to control how a poster thinks. I'm not sure that's why the points are removed or given. I have used them not to control how one thinks but what one says after repeated requests that they stop insulting fellow members. When a member repeatedly makes insulting remarks, diagnosis others as crazy, or otherwise inflames the discussion, even after being asked not to, to me that is damaging to the community as a whole.

If you repeat the pablum that the 'controlers' of the group like, they bump up your rep. If not they bump it down. Again, I will refer you to my comment above. While this practice may exist, I don't believe it's widespread; however, when several members pm me or write to me via my e-mail addess to complain about a member who repeatedly insults others, then it seems that issue is not the philosophy one espouses, but the way in which it is expressed.

It's a way for the ones who see themselves as 'alpha' to control the ones they see at 'beta'. This is a rather grandiose view, in fact it's the opposite, I can't think of more than a couple of folks here wanting to control others... there is nothing to be gained and the community suffers. I repeat, the issue is not one's opinion or views (we welcome and encourage dissent and opinios outside the mainstream, as long as they are prsented respectfully and without trying to impose them on others), it's how one presents them-- do they show respect for others or do they express contempt and disdain thru insulting posts.

When you get a poster like me who either doesn't care or is happy to have his reps diminished, then it creates all kinds of chaos among the would be 'alphas'. Surely thou doth protest to much.

The world would be perfect if only they would all liten to me....lol !!![/QUOTE] We do listen to you, and we want to honor and respect what you say; however, when posts become damaging (and if you need specific examples, those can be easily provided), it makes it hard for me to appreciate the content of what one is reading when I'm busy dealing with the peripheral material (name calling, insults, hostile exchanges).


Tony, this is not directed specifically at you, there have been a few members who repeatedly use language that is damaging to the community. It makes it an unsafe place for others, and I strongly believe we all have a responsibility to keep the community safe for everyone, especially in light of the fact that there are many who vist this site and who are quiet fragile or who may also have a severe and persistent mental illness.


Finally, Tony, my intent is not to be difficult or disrespectful, but to honestly address your views.

David

[Tony J]

Yes David, the community does suffer from a few people with control issues playing the moderators like a fiddle. That's my point !!!

And this "The world would be perfect if only they would all listen to me....lol !!! " was sarcasm (one of my many gifts)

I didn't mean that you don't listen to me, I meant the 'would be alphas' think that if the world would only do as they say, everything would be fine.



Tony J>> I think it's interesting that it's being used to control how a poster thinks. I'm not sure that's why the points are removed or given. I have used them not to control how one thinks but what one says after repeated requests that they stop insulting fellow members. When a member repeatedly makes insulting remarks, diagnosis others as crazy, or otherwise inflames the discussion, even after being asked not to, to me that is damaging to the community as a whole.

If you repeat the pablum that the 'controlers' of the group like, they bump up your rep. If not they bump it down. Again, I will refer you to my comment above. While this practice may exist, I don't believe it's widespread; however, when several members pm me or write to me via my e-mail addess to complain about a member who repeatedly insults others, then it seems that issue is not the philosophy one espouses, but the way in which it is expressed.

It's a way for the ones who see themselves as 'alpha' to control the ones they see at 'beta'. This is a rather grandiose view, in fact it's the opposite, I can't think of more than a couple of folks here wanting to control others... there is nothing to be gained and the community suffers. I repeat, the issue is not one's opinion or views (we welcome and encourage dissent and opinios outside the mainstream, as long as they are prsented respectfully and without trying to impose them on others), it's how one presents them-- do they show respect for others or do they express contempt and disdain thru insulting posts.

When you get a poster like me who either doesn't care or is happy to have his reps diminished, then it creates all kinds of chaos among the would be 'alphas'. Surely thou doth protest to much.

The world would be perfect if only they would all liten to me....lol !!! We do listen to you, and we want to honor and respect what you say; however, when posts become damaging (and if you need specific examples, those can be easily provided), it makes it hard for me to appreciate the content of what one is reading when I'm busy dealing with the peripheral material (name calling, insults, hostile exchanges).


Tony, this is not directed specifically at you, there have been a few members who repeatedly use language that is damaging to the community. It makes it an unsafe place for others, and I strongly believe we all have a responsibility to keep the community safe for everyone, especially in light of the fact that there are many who vist this site and who are quiet fragile or who may also have a severe and persistent mental illness.


Finally, Tony, my intent is not to be difficult or disrespectful, but to honestly address your views.

David[/QUOTE]

[seaj]

I think the beta's should care more about helping others and how they phrase that help - and if need be, take advise from the alpha's or other beta's (but I figure alpha's are put in that role for a reason) on how to better word their help, if it happens to be coming across in a damaging way that could be detrimental to the health of people here who obviously already have enough issues to deal with.

I don't know you Tony or your issue (other than what you've stated), but I think it's a sad state if you desire more to make you own point via way of hurting others, than step back for a moment and take stock and start over in a place where anyone would let you. I don't know why but the way you typed makes me think of a quote judges often say to fighting divorced parents - you've gotta love your kids more than you hate each other. So maybe you've gotta love being here more than you hate the "alpha's". :eek:

[SweetSue]

OK, Im megga confused now, whats alpha and betta about this site ? :confused:

Tony you say that you dont really care, but I kinda do. You see everyone here has a right to be treated equally, with respect and consideration. You may or may not care less about rep points, but I think maybe you do, just a little. (mmm, just a thought).

Anyway Im sure the Moderators have a mind of there own and arent swayed one way or another. Its kinda there role (i think) to make that "judgement call". And certainly in the time I have been here they have been pretty fair. (although still I wonder about the thread of mine they closed, hmmm.) :)

And as that other member that pm'd you to offer support, I still offer you support now, you have made quite a lot of valuable posts on this site, and well personally I hope that you continue to do so.

OK, now Ive forgotten in my old age what I was trying to say (need a new brain cell ~ go figure) Oh well im gonna post this, and edit it later when and indeed if I remember :)

Take care
Jj

[JulianP]

deleted.....

[seaj]

OK, Im megga confused now, whats alpha and betta about this site ? :confused:


I just wanna clear up I used those terms to respond to Tony using his own terms.

[SweetSue]

hey Julian and seaj,

Sorry I really am confused tonight. (long story, brain cell has decided to nap on me again) :D

Julian, as ever thankyou for making me smile ~ (you are very funny, if I could laugh then that would of been when I would of.) Youre very kind, and generous with the warmth of your words :)

Take good care
sue

[Tony J]

Nahh, I don't care about them. I've posted on some pretty tough sites. :)

I do care about certain people crying to the moderators and the moderators reacting (over reacting ?).

Then you have to worry about everything you post and the content becomes very lame. Remember H Ross Perot : 'lead, follow or get out of the way ' ?

That's what happens when you get people chirping behind the scenes. They don't contribute anything but they can burden the rest of the community.

People need to learn to mind their own business. If you don't like a topic or get too upset by reading it, then ignore it. How hard is that really ?

Saying you're complaining 'for the good of the community' when you obviously have an opposing philosophical position is just.......weak.



OK, Im megga confused now, whats alpha and betta about this site ? :confused:

Tony you say that you dont really care, but I kinda do. You see everyone here has a right to be treated equally, with respect and consideration. You may or may not care less about rep points, but I think maybe you do, just a little. (mmm, just a thought).
Jj

[JulianP]

deleted.....

[seaj]

Tony, it sounds like you're complaining (and I hate to use that word - would upset be better?) about things (or something) that happened in the past and you aren't even speaking of them happening in the present. i.e. referring to your remark that people speak "for the good of the community". Which btw, by my understanding, would be the accepted right and expectation of moderators. I add that just in case you’re referring to them doing that.

I would agree on other types of sites it may be easy to ignore a topic upfront if it's the type of thing that may upset you. But in this type of forum you could approach a topic and someone's demeanour about said topic or directly to you in that thread could be very upsetting. I’ve only been here a short while and believe I’ve come across 4 threads (I think that’s correct, it may be more) started around the same topic since then and they all contain greatly different content in most of the posts, even if a few posts carry some of the same general information. Also not liking/being upset by something may not occur in the first post of the thread or even the fifth. You could be well invested in a thread before someone posts something that's upsetting to you, so saying mind your own business or simply don't read is not as easy as you make it sound.

I also can’t see why you can’t make room for people having fragile personalities. Should they not allow themselves to be as informed as much as anyone else because they may be more easily upset? It seems to me that that is your opinion. I would think in such a situation a moderator would make a judgement call that was, as you said yourself, “for the good of the community”. If it did no harm to anyone else to allow someone who has been hurt to feel better why would this bother you so?

I would also have to add that just because you are someone who elects to read but not post and gain knowledge/help/understanding/inspiration/whatever else that way doesn't deny you the right to form the ability to be upset by something.

[SweetSue]

Sorry if I offended you Tony, I really am getting rather confused these days :eek:

[David O]

Tony,

Your comment: “People need to learn to mind their own business. If you don't like a topic or get too upset by reading it, then ignore it. How hard is that really ?” was enlightening. It reminded of my elevator ride with another man who kept passing gas loudly while we rode up 32 floors. He would pass gas sounding like a wart hog, look at the three of us in the elevator with him and smile. After a few floors someone gave him a look and his comment to her was: “Hey, if you don’t like the sound, plug your ears… and if you don’t like the smell, WTF, stop breathing or breathe through your mouth!” He continued to pass gas but added burping to the experience. This was the only elevator, it was very slow, and no one wanted to climb the 32 floors with their books, papers and other work materials.

Tony, I’ll be blunt since it seems that previous efforts by others have been returned as “undeliverable.” What you’re asking others to do is akin to what that man was telling the three of us in the elevator with him. I read you posts b/c you often have something to contribute; however, I also become concerned when others have to be called delusional, liars, drama queen, cry baby, don’t flatter yourself, and many other insults and attacks on their dignity. This is a small family here and we all live in a small “house”--- as such, we need to be sensitive and not “pass gas and burp” as we move from room to room. You and I, everyone, has a responsibility to keep the house safe and the family as healthy as possible—and when one person sneezes, others catch a cold.

While we all welcome and even encourage dissenting views, we also need to protect and safeguard each, and we all carry this responsibility—no one is immune, not Tony J or David O, or Julian or Mark or Sue or McGowdog. Likewise, I would be equally blunt with anyone who I saw disrespecting you, so it works both ways.

Sincerely,
David O

[Tony J]

Why would you have offended me ? :)





Sorry if I offended you Tony, I really am getting rather confused these days :eek:

[Tony J]

I would have gotten out on the next floor and waited for the elevator to come back down without the guy in it and then rode it up.

But then again, I don't like smelling peoples farts just so I can complain about it..........




Tony,

Your comment: “People need to learn to mind their own business. If you don't like a topic or get too upset by reading it, then ignore it. How hard is that really ?” was enlightening. It reminded of my elevator ride with another man who kept passing gas loudly while we rode up 32 floors. He would pass gas sounding like a wart hog, look at the three of us in the elevator with him and smile. After a few floors someone gave him a look and his comment to her was: “Hey, if you don’t like the sound, plug your ears… and if you don’t like the smell, WTF, stop breathing or breathe through your mouth!” He continued to pass gas but added burping to the experience. This was the only elevator, it was very slow, and no one wanted to climb the 32 floors with their books, papers and other work materials.

Tony, I’ll be blunt since it seems that previous efforts by others have been returned as “undeliverable.” What you’re asking others to do is akin to what that man was telling the three of us in the elevator with him. I read you posts b/c you often have something to contribute; however, I also become concerned when others have to be called delusional, liars, drama queen, cry baby, don’t flatter yourself, and many other insults and attacks on their dignity. This is a small family here and we all live in a small “house”--- as such, we need to be sensitive and not “pass gas and burp” as we move from room to room. You and I, everyone, has a responsibility to keep the house safe and the family as healthy as possible—and when one person sneezes, others catch a cold.

While we all welcome and even encourage dissenting views, we also need to protect and safeguard each, and we all carry this responsibility—no one is immune, not Tony J or David O, or Julian or Mark or Sue or McGowdog. Likewise, I would be equally blunt with anyone who I saw disrespecting you, so it works both ways.

Sincerely,
David O

[David O]

Tony, Since you've turned this into a game, I'll play it your way.

[xenophon]

David, proceed as indicated.

[Tony J]

Is that 'thumbs down' for me ??

I'm giving myself a 'thumbs up'.
It's very self affirming.

Tony, Since you've turned this into a game, I'll play it your way.

[seaj]

Tony,
While we all welcome and even encourage dissenting views, we also need to protect and safeguard each, and we all carry this responsibility—no one is immune, not Tony J or David O, or Julian or Mark or Sue or McGowdog. Likewise, I would be equally blunt with anyone who I saw disrespecting you, so it works both ways.

David O

Really, would ya? Still? :rolleyes: While someone intentionally pretends to not understand (unless he was genuine about the lift and he really doesn't get it) and intentionally tries to inflame a situation all while doing so under the a mist of naivety and seeming holly than thou.

At least it's nice to see he does understand, he simply doesn't like the rules. Why try and hide behind 'humour' in a thread like this, at a place like this. It seems like a strange mentality to bring here. Just my 5 cents.

[Tony J]

uh oh.....

It seems a poster has indirectly attacked the dignity of another poster.

I wonder what the moderators will do......the suspense is killing me.

[SweetSue]

Tony,

Are you ok ?

"Happy Thanks Giving" :o

************************************
************************************

Im going to once again ask everyone to please try and be nice to each other, and well there really is more than enough hurt around, do we really have to create more.

Personally this site is a kinda life line to me at times, and a lot of people here have helped me through a very difficult few months. I consider a lot of people here really good friends and yep, the soppy side of me thinks of you all as family.

Oh I dont really know what Im trying to say really, but everyone here deserves to be treated with respect, and consideration whether its the admin team, the pros, the moderators or the members, we all come here more or less for the same reason. to find our little piece of the world where we feel safe, comfortable, and arent judged, because we know we are all amongst friends, and people understand (or try to) care, and help support each other.

Please, everyone cant we all just try to get along :)

take care
Jj

[Tony J]

I am okay, thank you.

And Happy Thanksgiving to you. (why did you blush lol)

It seems I'm a safety threat around here and will be leaving.
That's kind of a shame. I need to go where I fit in I guess.......

But I want to thank you for welcoming me when you did. It really did make me feel good. :)

Peace.

Tony,

Are you ok ?

"Happy Thanks Giving" :o

************************************
************************************

Im going to once again ask everyone to please try and be nice to each other, and well there really is more than enough hurt around, do we really have to create more.

Personally this site is a kinda life line to me at times, and a lot of people here have helped me through a very difficult few months. I consider a lot of people here really good friends and yep, the soppy side of me thinks of you all as family.

Oh I dont really know what Im trying to say really, but everyone here deserves to be treated with respect, and consideration whether its the admin team, the pros, the moderators or the members, we all come here more or less for the same reason. to find our little piece of the world where we feel safe, comfortable, and arent judged, because we know we are all amongst friends, and people understand (or try to) care, and help support each other.

Please, everyone cant we all just try to get along :)

take care
Jj

[SweetSue]

Hi Tony,

Well I hope that you reconsider leaving here, as you have wrote a lot of insightful posts that I am sure have helped many people, but I guess ultimately the decision to leave is yours.

Why do you feel that you are a safety threat around here ?

(erm ok stupid question if you have already left :rolleyes:)

I wish you happiness, and truely hope that you find the place where you feel you fit in, hopefully you will reconsider, and decide that you fit in round here after all :)

Take good care
Jj

[Timothy]

I am a new member having just joined in December. Please do not take my comments as any sort of criticism just simply my experience thus far.

After I joined, my reputation was at 7 after a couple of days and stayed at 7 ever since. As a new member, my reputation is very important to me. I came here to hopefully connect with others who share my challenges and perhaps gain strength my helping someone else. I have had 3 people ask me to be a "friend" and this made me feel welcome.

I have tried to honestly share who I am. As a person I approach things or at least try to approach things with some level of humor. All my life humor has been a defense mechanism. At times, humor has at times been a welcome friend and years ago even paid some bills.

Today I found my reputation went down to 6. For me, as a new member, this was devastating. For you senior members this may not seem to be a reasonable response but I am trying to gain acceptance and still be me, once I realized that someone has been impacted negatively, I question whether I should continue to be myself. I assume that someone may have been offended by my humor.

My suggestion would be to eliminate the "reputation" system. Would it be more reasonable to have experienced, senior members, safe guard the site and weed out spammers or other unwanted visitors? If I offended anyone I would appreciate knowing, ideally from the person I offended, with my view or opinion. If that person would prefer to remain anonymous, could a senior member not communicate this message

I may seem fragile and perhaps I am, however, trying to find acceptance with a daily visible "do we like him" indicator can be intimidating to a newcomer.

Tim

[Symora]

I have to agree with Tim. I have felt let down by the fact that my reputation never changes. It's silly really since I don't really know you out there in cyberworld:), but I feel that I have found a nice place to be and I have noticed it is helping me rebuilt trust. I'm new to forums and frankly I'm not even clear why the reputation is there - the mention of spammers confused me mostly:confused: All I know is that if someone brought down my score I might not come back - I'm insecure right now and I'm always concerned I will sound stupid... The safe environment is working for me, I can feel the positive effects of it. I really appreciate that the senior members work hard to ensure the forum remains supportive and encouraging.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I wish I had not found out about the reputation option, now I have this feeling like I'm being graded :( It's just an element I wish wasn't part of the conversation...

[seaj]

I've been on the number I'm at for a good 70 posts or so now, I feel I can relate. But I don't think getting rid of it is the right move. I feel I've been just as helpful since before I got the points and after when I haven't had anymore - but to me it feels like when you get to a certain point the bar is raised, so to speak. Which is a healthy thing I think. It lets you know how productive what you're saying is, especially when a message is left with the points.

I also feel like I talk in the same circles of people and then others who probably don't realise the can give points and think, "oh well, I'm not here for point - it can be rewarding, but it's by no means a reason I'm here, let alone a priority and I refuse to let it impact me".

[tourdelove]

Quoting Malign:
"I feel a need to express my outrage at the emerging practice of using the site's reputation system to disapprove of a post, purely on philosophical grounds.

We are not a popularity contest. The sole reason that the reputation is in existence is to provide a way to examine posts for potential spam sources.

It has subsequently been used as an anonymous way to encourage fellow posters, and that's fine."

Nuff said.
This reputation and voting system is imbedded in the Forum's system. It's part of a template. Practically all forums have them, and several 'community' based internet services do too...Where it may be useful to a certain extent on a site for sellers and buyers like ebay, frankly, the relevance and the actual true benefit of this feature on mentalhelp.net is quite debatable. Besides, even in the case of ebay, there are unfortunately many ways to contour and inflate one's reputation quite easily. Buyers beware they say, and rightly so ;)

I only became more aware of the importance people gave to this feature on our site recently myself, when I came upon a discussion between two users about agreeing to better each others 'reputation' numbers. Who knew. Never really paid attention to it before, as they had already proved to be quite unreliable in other forums I had seen.

Conclusion:
continue to ignore feature.

Peace.
T

[seaj]

I only became more aware of the importance people gave to this feature on our site recently myself, when I came upon a discussion between two users about agreeing to better each others 'reputation' numbers. Who knew. Never really paid attention to it before, as they had already proved to be quite unreliable in other forums I had seen.

Conclusion:
continue to ignore feature.

Peace.
T

To such people I would say, so be it, let them have high reputation. There posts will speak for themselves whether the reputation has been earnt. For me, it's often the comments that come with the reputation point that are encouraging or just knowing you are taking what's considered by others, a good approach toward tackling a challenge. And if someone is insisting on being difficult, then I'd like to be able to see that at first glance too I must say. Helps you know who is here for real help and who is here to be annoying.

* ETA: I don't consider a lack of points a bad thing either. I just consider that to be someone I can rely on getting a great "person next doors' " opinion from and who just may not take part as often or who is the one who is there for a hug or the like. And it's a good way to know which way I'm turning.

[Luna-]

As a relatively new member, but one who wishes to stick around and be part of this community, a few thoughts:

On depressionforums.com there used to be a 5-post rule for newbies. You had to reach a post count of 5 before you could start a new thread. There was a New Members thread where you could post at first, and where you could also write about a crisis so that you were not excluded from asking for help right off the bat. (I would venture to guess that most people seek out a support group when they're in difficulty or crisis, so early posts are often written in distress.) After posts you could start a thread anywhere. Since most spamsters don't stick around that long, that handled it and joining wasn't moderated. And if you couldn't behave civilly you got PMed and then banned.

On that forum, besides spam, there was enormous volume, much of which came from new people "popping in" to ask a question and then never coming back. It became demoralising to do the whole "welcome, tell us about yourself" thing or respond to a crisis post (or let me own it and say I allowed myself to become burnt out with welcoming and crisis responding) when so many just wanted an answer to a question, didn't want to join a community and often didn't even say thanks, just disappeared. Compassion fatigue.

I must confess I also got focused on the Reputation at first. I felt like I had just come in and was being judged. I understood about the spam thing, but it also felt that I had to prove that my problem was serious enough. That's my stuff and comes from me alone but low self-esteem in active illness pretty much goes with the territory. (On bad days I still worry whether my posts are acceptable.)

There is a sticky 'Welcome New Members' thread which says why the Rep is there, but I missed that part on the first read-through. If you're distressed, I think you're more inclined to miss it. A separate sticky thread called 'Reputation' might be a chance to make the whole spam reason clear and that it isn't about popularity or judgment.

Just throwing in my 2c (and our currency is poor against the dollar, so...)

[seaj]

Just throwing in my 2c (and our currency is poor against the dollar, so...)

That's cute, I like it - I like the way you think throw such a thing in.

Like your signature too btw.

[JaneE]

Hi! I know this is kind of an old thread, but I don't get to spend a lot of time here...!

I think I'm just beginning to understand the "Rep" thing...! On the other couple of fora I belong to there's just post count, and privileges or not according to that, but this is the only non-hobby-oriented forum I belong to so I guess it'd have to be set up differently!

I feel bad because I've received a lot of rep, but I didn't know what it was or how I got it, and I haven't given any in return!!! My apologies! #^^#

I tend to have to 'hit-and-run' with my posts, too... because my eyes get tired quickly and I can't read online for long. Also there have been topics I've read and not felt capable of addressing the situation at all!!

But I'm just grateful for the comments I've received in my own threads (which tend to be posted in distress, oops) and will try to visit more often and be more supportive of others.

I think abusive members who just "don't get it" should be banned or asked to leave, particularly if they've been PMd with concerns and disregarded them. There's no excuse for that! One forum I belong to has a "Three strikes and you're out" policy, though the moderators are very clique-y and don't give adequate (any) warning that you've done something wrong before striking, it's very much a popularity contest there. I don't believe that's the case here, nor should it be!